Newbie intro. / Sailing Costs

[Concerto]

I’ve had a look at your PPT before - great job. I may come down to the boat show - will look you up if I do. I had great intentions of restoring a classic car when I retired, two years in and the thought of cutting out, rubbing down and playing with greasy bits seems to hold no appeal whatsoever. I think I’ll just want to go sailing…..

I have always enjoyed DIY, not just on boats but houses as well. As to sailing, I enjoy sailing singlehanded and in recent years have been part of the work up to ensure everything is as I want it as next year I am heading up the east coast to the Shetland Islands before returning down the west coast. This has been a trip I have wanted to do for many years but work got in the way and will probably take me 5 months. This video is of a three week trip I made to the Isles of Scilly and is a taste of how I sail.

If you want to increase your sailing experience, why not join a club and crew on another owner's boat to either cruise or race round the cans. Both will teach you lots about boat and sail handling plus learn about tides and navigation. Although I now cruise, in the past I used to do a lot of offshore racing. Many of those racing skills I learnt, I still use today. So use every opportunity to go sailing and learn from as many skippers as possible. Every skipper has different ideas and will quickly increase your knowledge and will help you decide on the right boat for the type of sailing you want to do.

 

[Marquee]

If you want to increase your sailing experience, why not join a club and crew on another owner's boat to either cruise or race round the cans. Both will teach you lots about boat and sail handling plus learn about tides and navigation. Although I now cruise, in the past I used to do a lot of offshore racing. Many of those racing skills I learnt, I still use today. So use every opportunity to go sailing and learn from as many skippers as possible. Every skipper has different ideas and will quickly increase your knowledge and will help you decide on the right boat for the type of sailing you want to do.

Thanks - great advice and part of the plan.

 

[alan_d]

In terms of boat length, your boat should be double your age + 5 (in feet)

So my boat would suit a 12 year-old, it would seem. Is there a square root missing somewhere in that formula? 5 + 2 x root (age x 2) would work for me.

 

[johnalison]

My memory was that your boat should be your age in feet in length. That would mean about 40' for a middle-aged person, but in those days boats had long overhangs, so equivalent to rather smaller boats today, with young chaps sailing a 2 1/2-tonner.

 

[Stingo]

My memory was that your boat should be your age in feet in length. That would mean about 40' for a middle-aged person, but in those days boats had long overhangs, so equivalent to rather smaller boats today, with young chaps sailing a 2 1/2-tonner.

I now suspect that my original claim might be wrong. Your age in feet in length sounds far more manageable.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I now suspect that my original claim might be wrong. Your age in feet in length sounds far more manageable.

I think I might still need a professional crew! Quite happy at less than half my age in feet.

 

[Tranona]

Great insights. Thank you, much to ponder but no real rush as I want to build my skill levels first. Incidentally I retired early a couple of years back so I have plenty of time on my hands. If I were to buy a boat I suspect it would be in the 10 year old ball park. I love the concept of doing up an older boat, but I suspect I’d end up outsourcing the work and I know that ain’t cheap. I will post my newbie “what boat” question maybe some other time.

I still hanker after fixing up an older boat having built 2 boats and owned a wooden boat for nigh on 40 years. However, if they are any size the boat tends to own you rather than you owning the boat. There is always something that needs fixing and after a while not only does fixing take up the majority of the time you also start fixing things that you have already fixed before!

Had exactly this experience running an MGB GT for 7 years. Every time you think you have got it sorted something else goes wrong or worse still the king pins and bushes you fitted when the car was bought need replacing. Solved that problem by swapping for a new Morgan which 18 years and 23000 miles later has cost other than annual servicing only a new radiator, new steering rack, cam belt change and rear brake cylinder. Maybe new tyres and brake discs this year or next. Available all year round when the sun shines for a wander round the Dorset lanes.

Same with boat. Can't think of anything that desperately needs changing apart from the poor mainsail and like yesterday just jumped on and 10 minutes out of the berth for a day's sail, on my own as boat specifically specced and set up for singlehanding. When the weather serves, just add bedding, food and drink and a few days pottering along the coast is the real reward.

 

[doug748]

Afternoon all. As seems to be the norm I‘be been lurking for a while, particularly enjoying the new vs old boat debates. My first time out on a sailing boat was 5 years or so ago crewing for a mate, subsequently went on to do comp crew and then completed day skipper in 2019 off the east coast. Haven’t done much since then due to lockdown and certainly feel the need for more experience before taking on skippering for myself. I’m looking to do the dayskipper masterclass that Rubicon3 do to get a bit more skipper coaching and then will look at coastal skipper. I also want to do some focussed boat handling training as this always seems the most stressful part of the trips I’ve been on.

Longer term I’m not sure what path I’ll take - whilst the allure of boat ownership is strong, there are alternatives to consider, fractional ownership, sailing clubs, chartering etc. I keep receiving material from flexisail on the folly of new boat purchase and they lay out some interesting cost comparisons. I‘d be interested in understanding some real world ownership costs for east coast (Ipswich say) and for a 30-33ft boat. Many thanks.

An old favourite this.

The expensive way is to buy a newish boat and keep it on a marina. Roughish 15k pa.

The cheap way is to buy an unfashionable but sound, 30 footer. Find a club mooring and steadfastly refuse to upgrade it in any way.

Over five to ten years the top figure might be edged down if you were exceptionally lucky on resale.
The low figure would edge up if the engine blew up or the sails fell into festoons.

.

 

[laika]

When I bought my first boat I had some tens of thousands of miles under my belt, most as skipper or mate. I was reasonably competent at "operating" a sailing boat but it took owning a boat to become familiar with maintenance skills which I now regard as vital to being a good skipper. Sign up to a company-managed yacht timeshare and I'm guessing (others can correct me if I'm wrong) you won't be taking the sails on and off, never mind fitting electronics, re-bedding deck fittings, antifouling and making repairs with epoxy and polyester resin. The ideal first boat is probably fully sorted out but ageing and a little cosmetically tired. With that, you don't get overwhelmed by a zillion jobs before you can go sailing but can address things as they arise (which they always do), but you're not put off experimenting with gelcoat repairs because the rest of the boat is immaculate. Plus the "floating shed", "remote working office", "always got my toolkit and stuff aboard", "Always know I can just head to the azores if the whim takes me" arguments already made by others. The "Zombie apocalypse escape route" reason has been questioned in the recent pandemic as people perhaps didn't think about travel restrictions to the boat.

The expensive way is to buy a newish boat and keep it on a marina. Roughish 15k pa.

I'd be interested to see your workings there. Isn't an ipswich berth for the 30-33' boat the OP suggests about £3k p.a.? Where's the other £12k going for that size of boat? I don't think I've ever spent that much on my 12m boat in a year even when I replaced the sails.
Marina, Berthing & Storage: Fox's Marina

 

[Marquee]

Sign up to a company-managed yacht timeshare and I'm guessing (others can correct me if I'm wrong) you won't be taking the sails on and off, never mind fitting electronics, re-bedding deck fittings, antifouling and making repairs with epoxy and polyester resin. The ideal first boat is probably fully sorted out but ageing and a little cosmetically tired. With that, you don't get overwhelmed by a zillion jobs before you can go sailing but can address things as they arise (which they always do), but you're not put off experimenting with gelcoat repairs because the rest of the boat is immaculate.

I can see the advantages in that approach - I’m ok with a bit of DIY, just wouldn’t want a significant project. And yes, flexisail for instance, their whole selling point is no maintenance, no hassle, just turn up and sail. I agree knowing how to fix key things is an important factor.

 

[Marquee]

The expensive way is to buy a newish boat and keep it on a marina. Roughish 15k

I won’t be paying 15k pa

 

[Tranona]

The £15k is made up of 2 parts. Approx 50% is the fixed cost of a marina and simple maintenance as I explained earlier. The other 50% is an estimate of the loss in capital value plus a notional element towards upgrading and replacements. There is some truth in this in principle if you have a boat of high capital value (simple sum £100k boat losing 5%pa is £5k gone already!) and the time horizon short - I consider 5 years short.

The bottom end that doug748 describes is just like what I described in post#2 and is predicated by a low cost mooring. Our club moorings for a 10m, either 8months on a swinger and 4 months in the marina afloat or ashore come out at around £1600. Add insurance and basic maintenance and a bit of replacement and you are still well under £3k or half the cost of a popular marina. Then spend £30 k on an older boat that some poor guy has just spent a fortune on doing up for his retirement but circumstances kill the plan and the loss in value is likely to be minimal. Then as doug says, just eke out the life of the kit, refuse to upgrade (New nav gear £5k a pop for a decent system, cruising chute with gear, £3k, new upholstery £2.5k - get the picture). Loss of value maybe £1k a year and your boating fixed costs don't get near £5k.

Lots of people boat in this way. I would guess at least 50% of our club members adopt this policy. Not necessarily by doing the sums like this sad accountant but of necessity. They can afford £5k a year and this approach is the best value for money. What really cost money is swapping boats regularly - just like cars. It is the transaction costs and crystallising the loss in value that is the killer. Bit like changing wives!

If on the other hand you have the money and if the opportunity cost is low (like now) and you have a longer time horizon buying new (or ish) is good value. With lightish use I think 10 years is the optimum time. Loss in value is likely to be around 35-40%, replacement and upgrade costs low. A real bonus is being able to access a deep water marina berth at swinging berth cost and you can get costs almost down to base level while enjoying using up the first 10 years of the life of a boat rather than the last but one 10 year span of life.

 

[pvb]

If on the other hand you have the money and if the opportunity cost is low (like now) and you have a longer time horizon buying new (or ish) is good value. With lightish use I think 10 years is the optimum time. Loss in value is likely to be around 35-40%, replacement and upgrade costs low.

Your "loss in value" figure may not be current. My highly-specified Cruiser 37 was £130K in 2014. Today, 2014 models with lower specs are listed at £110K in the UK, and a new boat to a lower spec is around £170K. In 7 years, about all I've done to the boat is antifoul it every 2 years.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, I made exactly that point in post#7. My 33 was £100k in 2015, latest 34 to similar spec around £140k list - and none available till next year. Last 33 that sold , similar spec to mine went for £85k. Who knows what the future holds, but I guess the fundamental lack of supply and high price of new boats is likely to lead to static or even increasing prices for the next couple of years. Pinch myself that the cost to change was so modest when I think what it would be now. Luck not skill though. Just renewed my agreed value insurance with no change from 3 years ago.

 

[pyrojames]

By that algorithm, surely everyone is! Sixteen-year-olds with 37 footers?

I thought it was one foot for each year +5! I became underboated in the last five years on that basis, but I am beginning to the think that the years should start rolling back after 50!

 

[doug748]

"I won't be paying 15k"

People do, but sometimes close their eyes to the real costs. Tranona's post sums it up.

It goes without saying that the high spend buys you an easy life and comfort.
The low spend can be very basic boating indeed and a 5 grand boat over 5 or 10 of zero spend may have depreciated to almost zero. There are a lot of these about.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Don’t you mean half your age plus 5 in feet?

 

[Gwylan]

The management and I agreed we would never discuss the costs of our hobbies. Sailing and skiing.

That worked.

For sailing, putting aside depreciation and catastrophic damage like an engine going south there is rule of thumb someone gave me. Budget for £100 per foot per annum.

Worked for me. But I only learned that after I mover from a 24 ft boat to a 33ft one.

Having sold the boat almost exactly a year ago I notice that the S&S account has over £5k in it. But we didn't ski, but we have drunk an awful lot more wine.

 

[Kelpie]

Don’t you mean half your age plus 5 in feet?

Well that's not very fair, I'd have to buy a 25ftr!

 

[john_morris_uk]

Well that's not very fair, I'd have to buy a 25ftr!

Buy an 85’ boat by all means.