New sails - laminate or radial dacron?

[Angele]

After 13 seasons with my original "white" sails (tri-radial main, bi-radial genoa), I think the time has come for me to replace them.

The ones I have at present are laminates. After 13 years, the shape is still as good as the day they were cut, but they are now looking rather tired (the genoa especially). There is no sign (yet!) of delamination, but they have suffered the fate of many laminates - the genoa became badly mildewed after a couple of seasons of use and the main followed about five years later.

My boat is only lightly used, I have only done about 10,000 nm in the time I have owned her, and I try to avoid having the sails flog. (The main is fully battened, so that helps).

I suspect the old sails will start to fall apart in the not too distant future. My thinking is that, if I replace them now, while there is still some life left in them, then I have a pair of serviceable spares if I ever need to send the new ones back for repairs.

So, now to the question. What material? Putting price to one side for a moment, my priorities are (in order, most to least importance): performance; longevity (by which I mean continued good performance over many years); and appearance.

I have been offered Dimension Polyant's DCX laminate (that is either exactly what my current sails are made from, or it is the current available equivalent - not exactly sure). I have also been offered (by the same sailmaker) Dimension Polyant's Pro-Radial, which sounds like it is a very low stretch dacron when correctly used in a radial construction. The guys who are quoting me know I value performance and longevity, but say:

Dimension Polyant's Pro-Radial has crimpless warp yarns which means that the performance of this cloth is similar to the DCX without the potential issue of delamination/mildew.

Now that sounds like nirvana. The prices for Pro-Radial vs DCX laminate work out very similar. So, which should I go for?

I am also aware that Dimension Polyant produces a cloth called Hydranet, which also appears to offer performance and longevity with low mildew benefits. How does this compare to Pro-Radial? Is it much more expensive?

 

[[70521]]

I'm doing the same thing and am enjoying the discussions with my sailmaker about my needs and plans for future voyages.

 

[bedouin]

You should also consider Vectron / Vektran. Much better than Dacron but without the disadvantages of Laminates. (but it is 5 years since I last had a sail made so technology may have moved on since then)

 

[Angele]

You should also consider Vectron / Vektran. Much better than Dacron but without the disadvantages of Laminates. (but it is 5 years since I last had a sail made so technology may have moved on since then)

I think I am correct in saying that Hydranet is made from Spectra/Dyneema.

Not sure if Dimension Polyant (this appears to be my sail maker's preferred cloth manufacturer) makes a Vectran cloth or, assuming they do, what it is called.

Presumably a woven cloth, even one with threads that do not stretch, must still exhibit some creep when loaded, since you cannot eliminate "crimp" in a weave.

 

[bedouin]

Yes - vectron is a woven cloth like dacron but doesn't stretch or degrade the way Dacron does either under load (ie. in the gusts) or with age.

I go to Sanders for my sails:

http://www.sanders-sails.co.uk/materials.html

They say that they prefer Dimension Polyant Vectron

 

[Angele]

They say that they prefer Dimension Polyant Vectron

Hmm!

For anyone unfamiliar with what their various sail cloths/laminates are made from, the Dimension Polyant website is especially useless for navigating. They don't use the names spectra or vectran, so far as I can see. I only identified that Hydranet = spectra thanks to Mr Google. Can't tell which cloth is made from vectran. Do you know what Dimension Polyant call it?

 

[bedouin]

Hmm!

For anyone unfamiliar with what their various sail cloths/laminates are made from, the Dimension Polyant website is especially useless for navigating. They don't use the names spectra or vectran, so far as I can see. I only identified that Hydranet = spectra thanks to Mr Google. Can't tell which cloth is made from vectran. Do you know what Dimension Polyant call it?

I believe Vectran is a trade name - so other manufacturers use a different name - I believe Dimension Polyant call it Vectron.

Here is another link that confirms it exists - so perhaps they are just very slow to update their website:

https://agile4life.blog/2017/05/14/...-with-dimension-polyant-on-vectron-sailcloth/

 

[Angele]

I believe Vectran is a trade name - so other manufacturers use a different name - I believe Dimension Polyant call it Vectron.

Here is another link that confirms it exists - so perhaps they are just very slow to update their website:

https://agile4life.blog/2017/05/14/...-with-dimension-polyant-on-vectron-sailcloth/

Very slow, it would appear. That link of yours is nearly 6 months old! Pretty poor not to list all your products on a website.

I'll have to ask Peter about it (and Hydranet) and get him to quote for those for comparison purposes.

You say your last sail purchase was 5 years ago. (That is about 8 years more recent than mine). What was that made from? Are you happy with it/them?

 

[bedouin]

Very slow, it would appear. That link of yours is nearly 18 months old! Pretty poor not to list all your products on a website.

I'll have to ask Peter about it (and Hydranet) and get him to quote for those for comparison purposes.

You say your last sail purchase was 5 years ago. (That is about 8 years more recent than mine). What was that made from? Are you happy with it/them?

I think the link is only about 5 months old

I went for a vectran cloth from Peter Sanders - probably not the same one he is using now. I am very happy with it but to be honest it has had so little use that I have no opportunity to tell how well it wears. That is the first I have had in that fabric as prior to that it was only available through Hood.

 

[richardbrennan]

North's call their version NPC Radian. I had a Genoa made with it last year and it was sold as having the non stretch properties of a laminate, but with the durability of dacron, only time will tell! The price was very similar, in fact I think it was a few quid more, than their cruising laminate, they also now do one piece cruising sails, which may be worth investigating, but I know not how they compare price wise.

 

[RobbieW]

I think the link is only about 5 months old

I went for a vectran cloth from Peter Sanders - probably not the same one he is using now. I am very happy with it but to be honest it has had so little use that I have no opportunity to tell how well it wears. That is the first I have had in that fabric as prior to that it was only available through Hood.

I also have a Vectran main from Peter Sanders, made in 2010, fully battened. Its been to the Ionian and back since, still very happy with the shape and condition. Now on the Hamble if you wanted a look, PM me

 

[bitbaltic]

You say your last sail purchase was 5 years ago. (That is about 8 years more recent than mine). What was that made from? Are you happy with it/them?

Mine are about 4 years old, dcx laminate by Peter, both sails are radial cuts. I have no mildew or other problems with either of them although they do low miles and are taken off and serviced by Sanders each winter. If price is not a huge problem I would go with whatever Peter recommends to be honest. Not too much to go wrong if doing that!

 

[BabaYaga]

I had a North Radian furling genoa made in 2012 and a full batten main in the same cloth in 2014, the choice of material because I hope to be able to keep these sails for a long time.
After 6/4 sailing seasons everything is still looking good...
If I were to buy today, I would also look at Norths 3Di Nordac, but suspect they are much more expensive.

 

[Angele]

Mine are about 4 years old, dcx laminate by Peter, both sails are radial cuts. I have no mildew or other problems with either of them although they do low miles and are taken off and serviced by Sanders each winter. If price is not a huge problem I would go with whatever Peter recommends to be honest. Not too much to go wrong if doing that!

Then I think you have been lucky. My genoa started to look grubby on either its 2nd or 3rd season. The main fared rather better. I have a photo in front of me, taken during a race in 2010, in which it still looked fine. But, it too took on the mildew look shortly afterwards. And mine have also overwintered in Lymington every year.

I think the problem (certainly in the case of the genoa) furling the sail away whilst wet and going home. Then returning 3 or 4 weeks later and during that time moisture was trapped between the layers of cloth.

At the moment, all I have is a quote based on two different materials. I think I will need to call and talk through the pros and cons of each (including Hydranet and Vectran too methinks).

 

[Angele]

I had a North Radian furling genoa made in 2012 and a full batten main in the same cloth in 2014, the choice of material because I hope to be able to keep these sails for a long time.
After 6/4 sailing seasons everything is still looking good...
If I were to buy today, I would also look at Norths 3Di Nordac, but suspect they are much more expensive.

Having just quickly read the description on North's website, it sounds like 3Di Nordac is dacron with a non-stretch filament in one direction. Yes? If so, then it sounds very like the Dimension Polyant Pro-Radial, for which I have already been quoted.

 

[BabaYaga]

Having just quickly read the description on North's website, it sounds like 3Di Nordac is dacron with a non-stretch filament in one direction. Yes? If so, then it sounds very like the Dimension Polyant Pro-Radial, for which I have already been quoted.

No, I think the latter is more comparable to North Radian cloth, that is they are both materials suited for radially cut, paneled sails.
North 3Di Nordac as I understand it is a molded one-piece-sail technology, similar to that which is used for more exotic fibres (carbon, aramid etc), but this time using polyester/dacron fibres.

 

[Angele]

No, I think the latter is more comparable to North Radian cloth, that is they are both materials suited for radially cut, paneled sails.
North 3Di Nordac as I understand it is a molded one-piece-sail technology, similar to that which is used for more exotic fibres (carbon, aramid etc), but this time using polyester/dacron fibres.

Just shows how difficult it is for an amateur (like me) to compare two different cloths from different manufacturers/sail makers, when they adopt their own descriptions.

 

[westhinder]

Just shows how difficult it is for an amateur (like me) to compare two different cloths from different manufacturers/sail makers, when they adopt their own descriptions.

Yep, I know that feeling all too well, having gone through the same process last year. My priorities were both longevity and performance, in that order.
My sailmaker prefers to use Contender cloth, and the choice we made was a fully battened main in their best Dacron, and a 130% triradial genoa in hybrid cloth: Dacron and Dyneema (very simlilar to Vectra,/vectron).
Now after just one season I am very pleased with the shape and the set of the sails. Performance is very good. Longevity is too early to tell of course.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Am I alone in considering vectra/vectron/dyneema sails particularly horrible to handle? I've found that even to the extent that they've been quite hard to gather in a blow, partly because of the stiffness but also because they're just bloody hard to get hold of if you haven't got an edge of the sail.

 

[flaming]

A couple of thoughts...

1st, the days of laminates having issues with mildew are really in the past. I wouldn't let that figure in your decision this time.

As you know, my Dad had a Dufour 40 for many years, and it did a lot more miles than you're reporting with Sanders laminates. I wouldn't hesitate to buy Sanders again based on that experience, but I would definitely change the setup. He had a 120% genoa on a furler, which was a pain to tack but being a genoa had a very hollow leach and so really didn't have the sail area to justify the hassle. However, I think anything bigger than that would have been too much sail area for what was, by cruising standards, a pretty powered up boat.
So I would without question be specifying a non overlapping jib with vertical battens cut to sheet to the front couple of feet of the track and to sheet inside the shrouds. I'd suspect you could get almost the same area as a roller furler 120% genoa. I think you'd get a real performance boost, and tacking would be transformed. If you added some inhaulers as well, you could well embarrass a fair few race boats. But only do that if you have the deep keel. The shallow keel, I found, couldn't live with the point that the rig was capable of producing and we sailed upwind with a fairly eased setup to get best VMG.

Having used North 3Di (and 3DL beforehand) on the race boat, I'd be very interested in what the cruising version was like. I had a quick look at the Boat Show recently, and it looks good, but I'd expect it to be pricier than a "conventional" laminate. If you don't like the price then you won't go wrong with Pete Sanders.

The one thing I wouldn't do would be to go back to Dacron. With the one possible exception of Ocean cruising I think that's a technology that has had its day.