New sail advice wanted

[gardenshed]

Search for previous posts on the topic and then put together "your" spec for the sails:
Cloth Specification
Cut
Foam Luff/No Foam luff
Camber stripes?
Sail number
Leech line: Line type (spectra) & Cleat type, Velcro cover for cleat & line tail
Head/tack/clew: what type & reinforcement
Markers for 1st / 2nd / 3rd reefs
UV protection: colour & width
tell tales: No., position, telltale window?
Sail Bag
single/double/triple stitched seams?
Cross cut, tri radial?
spreader patches
Size!! 150%, 135% .....

Unless you are comparing identical specifications, the price comparisons are meaningless.
The above might appear a bit more detailed than you think necessary, but within the loft, they will have to produce a detailed build spec either for the outsourced Chinese factory or for the in-house sailmakers.

The cloth specification alone can be quite complex, particularly if you go for a "laminate". To make it easy, just ask the sailmaker to detail the materials used from one side of the sail to the other, the wieghts/thread density of the different components and if available, the laminate supplier's specification sheet. If nothing else, you will flush out the sailmaker that is really interested in getting your business.

 

[simonfraser]

have you spoken th Mark, advantage sails B'c ?

0799542138

fully battened main for my tri, v good.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Westerly for example used Ratsey sails, bullet proof and lasted years and years but had no shape after 6 months.

My Ratsey main and genoa - on a Westerly - are still beautifully shaped after thirty three years. My working jib came from Nicolson Hughes at Clynder, who did a beautiful job and who I would strongly recommend.

 

[Robin]

My Ratsey main and genoa - on a Westerly - are still beautifully shaped after thirty three years. My working jib came from Nicolson Hughes at Clynder, who did a beautiful job and who I would strongly recommend.

I don't believe in miracles but maybe I should!

Quite apart from the highly unlikely case that these sails haven't stretched unless they have been in the locker from new, the changes in sail design, materials and cutting of sails since they were made alone would amaze you.

This illustrates the real difficulty in comparing sails and sailmakers because so much depends on the owner's knowledge or what the owner actually expects or indeed is happy with, often in the name of 'just for cruising'. Racers use high tech materials for the ultimate in performance and are prepared to pay not just the high initial cost but also to replace them regularly - 3yrs or less maybe and they do that for performance not for punishment. Many cruiser owners are happy just to buy simple low tech sails down to a price thinking no more is required for them, which is fine for some. Others like me want more from our sails, I expect them to perform really well AND to last, which means with larger sails (41ft boat, tall rig) and consequently higher loads on them that standard Dacron is not enough. Using basic Dacron on our boat the sails might well 'last' 20 years or more but would be shapeless in months as they stretched. Laminates are an option but shorter lived and can mildew between layers which is unattractive to me. Hydranet with Spectra/Dyneema fibres woven in to form a tough low stretch grid within the Dacron is my preferred choice, it will outlast normal Dacron and keep it's shape yet not go black with mildew.

Smaller boats can get by with a good quality Dacron because the sail loadings are less and can be handled, if necessary with a slightly higher cloth weight. That option of heavier and heavier cloth to mitigate stretch isn't there on bigger boats as the sails would simply become too heavy.

As a matter of interest, we had a Westerly 33 for 14 years which came with Ratsey sails. I replaced those with Crusader ones in a quality Dacron, biradial genoa and standard main & mizzen, huge improvement. We kept the boat a long time and later bought a fully battened main and mizzen plus a new roller genoa and again the improvement was marked. At the same time we had friends with a Westerly Seahawk bought new with Ratsey sails. They were slower and couldn't point upwind very well compared to us in a ketch not noted for windward performance. Eventually they bought new sails for the Seahawk (Crusader too as it happens) and the difference was amazing.

 

[zalophus]

Obvious point - depends what style of sailing you do. Me = mainly cruising but no ocean crossing, plus some club racing. This leads me to cruising laminate tri-radial roller genoa plus f/b dacron main. I bought from Kemp for my last two boats and was generally very pleased, this time went with North because they were, surprisingly, cheaper like-for-like. Also they got my specs right on their quote at the first attempt. Plus they'll come to the boat to measure up.

Very impressed with the service from North so far - they may be the world's biggest sailmaker but are very attentive.

But the real test will come next season.

 

[webcraft]

Have you considered marblehead?

.
We had both our new sails (main and rf genoa) made in marblehead dacron - denser weave, less resin in it, about 15-20% more expensive. Softer handle and less deterioration in performance with aging.

Marblehead Woven Dacron
This is the closest woven Dacron available today. It is virtually resin free and is made using only the highest quality polyethylene terepthalate yarns. It is woven on the most modern shuttleless looms which have been specially rebuilt and reinforced to pack in the highest possible number of yarns.

Because of its tight construction there is not the usual crimp problem so this material is ideal for the most discerning yachtsman be it for round the cans racing where a long lasting good performance sail is required or for a Round the World yachtsman who wants, expects and demands the best and most manageable sails.

.........................................................................................(from the Jeckells website)

Woven marblehead will never be quite as racy as a laminate, but it will handle better and last longer. Personally I would never consider a laminate on a cruising boat.

- W

 

[Richard_Peevor]

Vote for kemp sails...

Great price to rival Hyde and Jeckells, one to one service, no problems with the cut even for a one off boat and got a great discount buying a full suit of sails.

 

[carrswood]

I too am looking to buy some new cruising sails this winter.
Crusader obviously do some good deals but on reading around it would seem their quality is questioned by some.

I have some excellent quotes from Quay, Kemp & Jeckells which are very close in price.

I just don’t know which to go for though?

To throw another one into the mix, I also have a good quote from Arun sails - many used them? I'm certainly favouring the use of the better quality Dacrons as suggested above. I also think a visit to see the product might help.

 

[Flapjack]

Arun Sails

I had new Main and Genoa made last year by Arun at Bosham for my 25 Itchen Ferry and was very pleased with the service and the sails, they also did me a very good price on a new boom cover as well. Would use them again and would have no hesitation in recommending them to others

 

[spscam]

.
We had both our new sails (main and rf genoa) made in marblehead dacron - denser weave, less resin in it, about 15-20% more expensive. Softer handle and less deterioration in performance with aging.

.........................................................................................(from the Jeckells website)

Woven marblehead will never be quite as racy as a laminate, but it will handle better and last longer. Personally I would never consider a laminate on a cruising boat.

- W

It is still cheaper to buy marblehead than contender polypreg by about 50p/m. Working on the principle of you get what you pay for. I would recommend contender sailcloth.

 

[webcraft]

Not a valid comparison

.
Contender is a brand name for a manufacturer of sailcloth. They make a wide range, whereas marblehead is a single type of sailcloth made by Challenge so quoting a single price comparison is disingenuous IMO.

I note you are a new poster - no connection with Contender Sailcoth I presume?

- W

 

[spscam]

.
Contender is a brand name for a manufacturer of sailcloth. They make a wide range, whereas marblehead is a single type of sailcloth made by Challenge so quoting a single price comparison is disingenuous IMO.

I note you are a new poster - no connection with Contender Sailcoth I presume?

- W

polypreg is to contender what marblehead is to challenge sailcloth. Contender produce a wide range of sailcloth starting with supercruise and progressing to low and high aspect polypreg ranges and then on to passagemaker with ripstop.
Not connected to contender have worked with most sailcloths (and a few sailmakers) it is expensive so not used much by 'premium' sailmakers who can sell aesthetic clothes like ocean premium or other fancy names like high modular etc....

 

[Ubergeekian]

Quite apart from the highly unlikely case that these sails haven't stretched unless they have been in the locker from new, the changes in sail design, materials and cutting of sails since they were made alone would amaze you.

I don't care. They are a nice shape and they drive the boat well. I suspect the benefits of expensive modern sails are - how can I put this - more apparent to those who have to justify to themselves the money they have spent.

 

[Robin]

I don't care. They are a nice shape and they drive the boat well. I suspect the benefits of expensive modern sails are - how can I put this - more apparent to those who have to justify to themselves the money they have spent.

If I were you I would be buying a lottery ticket as there must truly be miracles in your area!

No offence but most people outside of top level racers find it difficult to actually judge what is and isn't a good shape. We all may think we can do it and some of us can tell if the performance isn't there even if we can't see the real reason why. I fall into the latter camp I think with some idea of what to look for fault wise but I know when to ask a real expert.

By way of comparison, I used to think the Mini Cooper S I owned back when your sails were made was the bees knees and would better any modern car, then a friend lent me his classic car restored one a few years back and I drove it after my own new standard saloon. Bumpy and very slow! Time and technology moves on, stuff wears out, or in the case of Westerly original equipment sails stretches like an old pair of knickers.

 

[TiggerToo]

One vote for Westaway?

.... they get mine.

they did a genoa for me in marblehead dacron, which I like and works well.

This year they came well below competitors on a like for like comparison for a new main. I am getting a hydranet 350/FB. I am reusing the Frederiksen cars. I have no idea how well it will last, but all sailmakers sang the praises of hydranet, so we will see. What I DO know is that W/A offered a 20% discount at SIBS on top of being the lowest quote. They went to measure up the boat (again) whilst she was moored out on the Tamar and are well on time with their schedule, keeping me informed of progress.

And they are my "local" sail loft.

I am glad they are there to clean, valet and generally go over the sails once a year.

So, happy customer on this one (so far).

 

[flaming]

I don't care. They are a nice shape and they drive the boat well. I suspect the benefits of expensive modern sails are - how can I put this - more apparent to those who have to justify to themselves the money they have spent.

At the end of the day it is very hard to see the difference a new set of sails can make without lining up on a start line. But once you start doing that, you quickly realise two things.

1. Upwind there is absolutely no substitute for well cut, well trimmed sails that hold their shape. And that generally means laminate sails, or absolutely brand new dacron sails. The difference between racing laminates and cruising laminates is smaller than the difference between cruising laminates and dacron. We have a set of delivery dacron sails on the Elan, which is probably the best comparison available. Acccording to our instuments The dacron's generate nearly a knot less speed and about 8-10 degrees less height than the 3DL race sails. (In about 15kts of wind) Given that this was the same boat, with the same rig settings, and the same people trimming, I think it's a valid comparisson.

2. As soon as you're not on the wind the difference is tiny.

So if you're the sort of cruiser who simply doesn't go if the wind is forward of the beam, or who always motors to windward, then there's little point in spending the extra cash.

 

[doug748]

I don't care. They are a nice shape and they drive the boat well. I suspect the benefits of expensive modern sails are - how can I put this - more apparent to those who have to justify to themselves the money they have spent.

Sounds ok to me.
Though the laminate sails are faster.
Are they Ideal? Only if someone else is paying for them

 

[Goldie]

I believe Sanders in Lymington can offer Vectron as well. As a sailmaker, they come very highly recommended.

 

[pwc51]

We are looking at new sails for our Hunter Channel 32 - The current dacron sails are fully battened and 20 years old. We don't have fancy cars - just larger slides. They have worked brilliantly and are just getting a bit tired now. I have a connection (family member) with one of the lofts mentioned at the head of this thread! There is no doubt that dacron is best for longevity / duarbility when cruising - we are likely to try a low cost racing laminate (new process as an experiment!) - the overall cost being the same as the dacron approach.

As for battens - the top two will be full length, but again will not need cars. The lower ones will be about 3/4 length - saving on the need for cars and giving more indication of backwinding etc which the fully battened option lacks.

As with anyone in the same trade for which they require a service I am not expecting delivery any time soon!

 

[ianabc]

So what percentage of "sailmakers" actually manufacture sails from scratch ?

Having recently read an article about the huge factory in southern China that manufacturers thousands of sails a month ( mostly unfinished ready for shipment for first world finishers) I wonder just how many of the readers sails were made from raw bolts of cloth, how many were really well made sail kits fromChina ready for local finishing?