New rigging - shroud length question

[Slahm]

Hello all!

I am currently having my rigging completely replaced, and it is mostly installed, not tensioned. The shrouds and stays are still loose.

My worry is that the sides are maybe 1/3 or more tightened down the threads, and the forestay is almost completely tight before any tension. 2 cm left?

Two of the shrouds are not tightened, and as I would expect the turnbuckles are only about 1.5 cm into the threads, but the rest are 5 or 6 cm in, and the forestay turnbuckle is almost bedded, about 2cm left. I will include a picture of that here.

My forestay is quite loose still, and there is not even a backstay yet. The mast is almost plumb, but looks like it probably needs more forestay tension to remain straight, the furler is still sagging too much for sure.

Will this be an issue in the future, am I getting screwed that I might have to buy new stays early if this is almost tightened too much right at the start? I don't think they can be shortened just a little once swaged.

Am I worrying too much in advance? This just seems a little hard to fix after the fact. It has been a painful install, so maybe I am just stressed due to lack of faith?


Thanks for any input!

 

[Baddox]

I wouldn’t panic yet. Masts are usually raked aft a little depending on the rig type. The forestay tension will be balanced by either the backstay or if the spreaders are swept back, the shrouds will balance the force. If there is no backstay or tight swept shrouds then the forestay should appear loose as there’s nothing providing an opposing force against it.

Once the slack is taken out of the wires, it doesn’t take many turns on the turnbuckle to pull the wire to the required tension. The longer the stays, the greater the number of turns or correspondingly how much the wire needs shortening by to stretch the it to the correct tension.

So, to answer your question, it depends on the rig size and type, how much slack is in the system and what pre-bend and rake is required for the mast.

A swaged fitting cannot be adjusted without cutting it off and remaking.

 

[William_H]

Assuming from the way OP describes it is a fractional rig where cap shrouds and intermediate stays have chain plate well aft of abeam the mast. So that forestay length affects length/ tension on cap shrouds. I would suggest tighten up cap shrouds and intermediate shrouds until you run out of adjustment or nearly so. Then tighten up the forestay screw to get enough tension on shrouds. Do not be too fussed about mast rake. Often on a small boat fore and aft trim is affected by crew in cockpit so giving rake any way. Only if then you can not get enough tension on shrouds ie screws are down tight would you need to think about shortening stays. Even then perhaps the forestay as only one new stay. (re swaging might take too much out of stay length.
One other alternative might work is to raise the mast with packing under the base.
If in fact chain plates are inline with mast then forestay length etc will not affect shroud length/tension. If you run out of adjustment then yes shorten or replace stays. ol'will

 

[Slahm]

It is a Grand Soleil 46.3
20 meter mast.

The chainplate is as described, three in one, but not too far aft, maybe 20-25 cm. 5 degree sweep.

Of course I will have to wait and see, I am just worried that it looks like they cut the shrouds and stays about 8-10 cm longer than needed to start the threads easily. Not giving a great amount to tighten. I am worrying(in advance of course) that if they manage to get the rig tightened, I will end up with everything almost bottomed out, and basically screwed if anything changes or stretches. I would hate to have them say it is good, but then end up out of pocket in a couple years.

Sorry, I know this is me putting the cart before the horse, just wondered what anyone had for experience with this type of situation.

It does look like the sides will probably have enough to get taught, but that forestay has very little, and I am worried they will try to compensate with the aft stay which goes on tomorrow. I will let you know.
Thanks!

 

[William_H]

The stays should have been cut and swaged to exactly as replacing. Or perhaps with some slight variation depending on setting of the screws on old stays. If they varied the length for their own convenience then yes you should insist on correct length. You are right in thinking that you need to end up with some screw adjustment available for future stretch and adjustment. good luck ol'will

 

[bignick]

On a masthead rig with little spreader sweep almost all of your forestay tension comes from the backstay, so I wouldn’t worry just yet. If you paid for the entire job, then let them finish before you make any comment.

if you’re really worried at that point , then you could ask them to re-swage the fittings and shorten the wires. You can add an extra toggle if necessary to give you a little extra, which could be removed in the future.

 

[Slahm]

The stays should have been cut and swaged to exactly as replacing. Or perhaps with some slight variation depending on setting of the screws on old stays. If they varied the length for their own convenience then yes you should insist on correct length. You are right in thinking that you need to end up with some screw adjustment available for future stretch and adjustment. good luck ol'will

Forgot to mention, lost mast and all rigging. It's been a s**tshow, but I am hopeful. Sitting with halyards for ten days, nine of ten stays/shrouds installed. Slow and steady. I would have expected this not to be so slow.

On a masthead rig with little spreader sweep almost all of your forestay tension comes from the backstay, so I wouldn’t worry just yet. If you paid for the entire job, then let them finish before you make any comment.

if you’re really worried at that point , then you could ask them to re-swage the fittings and shorten the wires. You can add an extra toggle if necessary to give you a little extra, which could be removed in the future.

That is my plan, but I'm not famous for being able to watch things go sideways and keep my mouth shut. I had thought that I could always swage in another turnbuckle or something as a last resort.

Next time I think I will use the other non-swage fittings, but didn't really have that option here.

 

[andsarkit]

You can get short body rigging screws as an alternative although the yard should get it right for you.
GS products

 

[jamie N]

I've not had this problem, but when I was renewing the rigging on my deck mounted mast, I did think that IF the rigging had come back slightly too long, then I'd be able to put a 1cm. 'spacer' at the mast step. Certainly on my boat, this would've worked. As it happened, the problem was the opposite and a couple of the shrouds were fractionally too short, so I put in an extra toggle, as mentioned by @bignick in post #6.

 

[srm]

Who measured for the rigging?
If you handed the whole job to a contractor it is their responsibility to do it right. Suggest that you wait until they have set the rig up then decide if you have reasonable grounds for complaint. If you have they should correct it at their expense.

 

[jamie N]

Who measured for the rigging?
If you handed the whole job to a contractor it is their responsibility to do it right. Suggest that you wait until they have set the rig up then decide if you have reasonable grounds for complaint. If you have they should correct it at their expense.

If the question's for me, I gave the measurements to the company in the South of England. Either one of us might've been fractionally out, most likely myself as I'm the amateur in the equation, and I didn't measure the new ones when they arrived, nor during the stepping of the mast, after all we're talking less than a 10th of 1% on an average(ish) mast.
If I was to do the same thing again, I'd either send them the rigging, or measure it once it had arrived.
Edit: In fact, I think that the rigging was fitted immediately to a new mast, so given that I'd ordered the mast with measurements for the hounds taken from a broken mast, I'm quite surprised that it was so close to accurate!

 

[peter gibbs]

The stays should have been cut and swaged to exactly as replacing. Or perhaps with some slight variation depending on setting of the screws on old stays. If they varied the length for their own convenience then yes you should insist on correct length. You are right in thinking that you need to end up with some screw adjustment available for future stretch and adjustment. good luck ol'will

 

[peter gibbs]

Sounds like you were not present when new shrouds were fitted, so could not check exact bearing to bearing lengths. A small reduction in the new shrouds would have been desirable but not essential. Normal stretch factor over several seasons is remarkably little. On your rig 20mm would be expected, even if high tensions are applied.
What can throw all this is if changes in turnbuckles were included - were they like for like or other? If the old ones galled, new will be required. Shrouds may be good for length but overall?
A good rigger is going to know all this and not want you to feel your tensioning will let you down in future. Only get concerned if your turnbuckles are more than 2/3rds used at max tension.

 

[srm]

If the question's for me,

No Jamie, I was thinking of the OP's concerns.

I have re-rigged a number of boats, my own or a friends. I measure myself and add 0.2m. Order wire with top swages made plus hand fitted terminals for the bottom (Stalock or Norseman in the past). Dress and step the mast with halyards/temp lines for support. Cut wire accurately to length and fit terminal, starting with forward lowers.

Has worked well for me. In fact my current boat was re-rigged before sailing home while ashore and with the mast standing. Having mast steps helped.

 

[Refueler]

First thing is get the backstay on and THEN see what is situation.

Cap shrouds and side stays can only exert some force to oppose forestay - but their angle of force is too extreme vs the weight of forestay and possible furling gear - the backstay gets the final tension in ........

 

[Slahm]

First thing is get the backstay on and THEN see what is situation.

Cap shrouds and side stays can only exert some force to oppose forestay - but their angle of force is too extreme vs the weight of forestay and possible furling gear - the backstay gets the final tension in ........

Yes, to whine a bit, this has been a difficult install, months overdue, the installer has been incredibly unresponsive. Basically just said well wait, it will be fine. I am waiting, the backstay is installed, nothing tensioned yet.

As to measuring, honestly I just wanted it done right and I have never done this, so I left it to them, as I do not know how. (Yes I am capable of it, but they really, really just have no interest in this being a collaboration. It is frustrating. But they have a monopoly here, and I need this fixed to leave.

A bit of another hiccough yesterday, they installed the backstay, but with a used Bavaria aluminum backstay adjuster that is 1.5+ meters and ugly, not my backstay adjuster, which was Stainless and Harken. So the backstay is about a meter too short for my adjuster, which they have had for two months and apparently the gears are shot(yes they are shot, but they decided to just install a different adjuster and not tell me.

I asked why they would do this, rather than fix mine, which had been with them for two months, getting a gear set would be trivial, but just got more non-answers.

So I am given the choice of waiting more weeks or months to fix it properly, or accepting this monstrosity. I expect I will just eat the cost in another location to fix my adjuster and change the stay. This one is ugly and old.

Fun times.

Whining over.

 

[srm]

Name and Shame?

Once all the rigging is to hand it was a days work for two people to dress and step a mast then set up the rigging. Or at least it was on my 42ft masthead double spreader sloop, and that included cutting wires to length and fitting the bottom terminals.

 

[Refueler]

Yes, to whine a bit, this has been a difficult install, months overdue, the installer has been incredibly unresponsive. Basically just said well wait, it will be fine. I am waiting, the backstay is installed, nothing tensioned yet.

As to measuring, honestly I just wanted it done right and I have never done this, so I left it to them, as I do not know how. (Yes I am capable of it, but they really, really just have no interest in this being a collaboration. It is frustrating. But they have a monopoly here, and I need this fixed to leave.

A bit of another hiccough yesterday, they installed the backstay, but with a used Bavaria aluminum backstay adjuster that is 1.5+ meters and ugly, not my backstay adjuster, which was Stainless and Harken. So the backstay is about a meter too short for my adjuster, which they have had for two months and apparently the gears are shot(yes they are shot, but they decided to just install a different adjuster and not tell me.

I asked why they would do this, rather than fix mine, which had been with them for two months, getting a gear set would be trivial, but just got more non-answers.

So I am given the choice of waiting more weeks or months to fix it properly, or accepting this monstrosity. I expect I will just eat the cost in another location to fix my adjuster and change the stay. This one is ugly and old.

Fun times.

Whining over.

Interesting that you name Harken .... note that Harken use their own sizing and to repair Harken gear is not so easy ......

The yard that I have close friendship with have mentioned this on a number of occasions when boats come in for rigging work.