New or old ?

[jimi]

Have knocked this idea back and forward amongst some friends and would really appreciate you thoughts. Its basically a new v. old question. Would it be better to buy an older boat eg a Sadler 34 or similar rather than a new(ish) Ben,Jen,Bav and spend the money difference doing it up... or is it just best to get a new boat?

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[webcraft]

Doesn't it all depend on what you want to do with the boat?

- Nick

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[Talbot]

Dont forget the older boat will have a lot of bits added, that you want but have not budgeted for, thus the equation of cost benefit needs to take this into account. Furthermore, the choice needs to take into account personal tastes - i.e. is there now a boat suitable for my wants, if not was one made some years ago that I can buy now. THus I expect that there can never be a single answer to your question. Personnaly I would not buy a new or an old Ben,Jen,Bav /forums/images/icons/smile.gif



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[tcm]

Re: Forum boat

i think it wd be a good point to start discussing a forum boat. All yot clubs have boats except this one. A benny 57 is a donkable yet woohoo transat capable boat that more than one group/family could be on board AND it passes some crucial tests:

1) not old and knackered, but not too precious
2) capable of storing large qtys of junk (eg Fendersteps, unused spare sails etc.)
3) easy to get some spares anywhere
4) big enuf if you don't like that git over there
5) already got loads of teak
6) definitely got holding tanks and rudder (and aircon and heating)
7) plenty of space for important laminated notices to be stuck around the saloon

Otherwise (jimi) you are a get-on-and-sail-it type, so best get a new one now yours has haddit i.e. needs washing and a bit cramped for your lot which used to be small but are now almost as big as you.




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[BlueSkyNick]

The simple answer is that there is no simple answer to this.

To explain my argument further, it is not purely a financial question. It really comes down to personal requirements and preferences, and finding the right boat to satisfy them.

For example:

- usual number of occupants, including kids
- physical size of occupants (more an issue for me than for you!)
- type of sailing you want to undertake, eg just dossing around the Solent, regular channel crossings, or going blue water
- how long will you spend on board at a time, 4 hours? 4 days? weeks? months?

I could go on to a very long list - and so could everybody else.

The answers then become very varied, and the resultant boat could come from across the spectrum. We chose a 15yr old boat, instead of a 5yr old for the same money, to get sufficient space, performance and build quality to meet our expectations and we are more than happy with the outcome. We have spent a moderate amount of money on essential maintenance and desirable upgrades, but its not excessive (yet!)

Some people prefer a catamaran, some prefer a long-keeler, a motor sailor, a lightweight racer, etc etc. They all have the right answer for themselves, but that is not necessarily the right answer for you.

So we can give you a view point but not a definitive answer !!


<hr width=100% size=1>As one bar of soap said to another - "That's Life Boy"

 

[Aeolus_IV]

Old..

... to a point. Sort out the problems you know are going to be there, make sure they're fixed to your satisfaction, then enjoy the boat. As opposed to buying a new boat, and spending the next two years fixing all of the bad build problems which seem to be taken as part and parcel when buying a new boat (say rudder problems for example /forums/images/icons/smile.gif).

Personally, I think the older yachts can be better looking too.

Or have I just taken the bait to be reeled in slowly.

Regards, Jeff.

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[Twister_Ken]

I have a Scots friend who keeps his boat at the Hythe Home for Knackered Boats. He would be pleased to discuss the demerits of buying a new Beneteau with you. From memory, they hide holding tanks in unexpected places causing nasty pongs, fall over causing loss of spectacles when hit by big seas, and are fitted with biodegradeable rudders. Oh, and the dodgers seem a bit weak too.

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[tcm]

Re: New benny

but do they not have nice teak bits in all the right places as standard, or for a very small fee? This wd make a vast difference to the boat being a thing for sailing, as opposed to an outdoor stopover enroute to B+Q or the osteopath?

AND with careful management (ie knowing what is on the boat) could not the existence/non-existence of a holding tank be apparent, possibly with a nice laminated sign in the saloon "Oi, yer daft git, the family aren't all incontinent - the boat's got a holding tank!"

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[robp]

I bought new because what I looked at s/h was very tacky and at the time (6 years ago) there seemed to be a lot of it. The truth was that I didn't spend long enough, or look hard enough. Whilst she's done what I've asked of her and is all very pleasant, I would on balance not do it again. The influx of even cheaper boats (and I believe still more cheaply built), means that my expected break even by now with the purchase price, has not happened. A then ten year old and much loved HR would probably still be worth what I would have paid and there would be ample maintenence budget left too.

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[BlueSkyNick]

Good Point - depreciation has to be brought into the equation.

I found out last weekend that we paid roughly the same for our boat, as when she was brand new 15 years ago. OK, so she's not an HR or whatever, but its a double edged sword.

On the upside, she shouldn't depreciate much during our ownership assuming we look after her. On the downside, she might suddently depreciate a lot as there has to be a downturn somewhere in the life-cycle - she can't maintain her value for ever.

<hr width=100% size=1>As one bar of soap said to another - "That's Life Boy"

 

[Robin]

I have never yet sold a boat for less than I paid, over 34 years! I have never bought a new boat though. I might add that in between buy and sell has been a lot of work and spend spend and again spend, but I enjoy that and like to have the best.

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[robp]

I would have expected roughly your values. There are a lot of boats 30 years old that are worth as much or even much more than their price at new, so I wouldn't worry too much. With the depreciation and the cost of extras, I could have bought the boat that I told myself I couldn't afford. But then my wife was reminding me that I don't find time to fix the tiles on the doorstep, let alone fixing boat engines!

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[Twister_Ken]

True story

Was on a brand spanking new French boat at the weekend, bought for luxury cruising in the Med. The teak on the cockpit sole (you could see it around the edge of a inspection panel) was only approx 5mm thick. The cockpit was fitted as standard with stereo hi-fi speakers, but it was an optional extra to have a VHF extension speaker fitted. And the oven took 90 minutes to warm up (not cook) a tray of sausages. The chocolate truffles (also French) were very good, though.

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[Sybarite]

A lot of old boats look jaded and frumpish, but it's dead easy to brighten them up as long as the basics are sound.

I would never (unless the lottery...) go for a new boat. You just get so much more boat for your money, even taking account of refurbishment.

As an example : second hand Nauticat 38's are quoted from €59k (+vat) to €310k. ("YBW boats for sale") If you spent, say, €50k on the cheaper one, I am sure you would get a boat that gave you every bit as much fun as the dearer one.

John

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[jimi]

.. mm ... really fancy a Sadler 34 after sailing the Sadler 29 at the weekend ..

<hr width=100% size=1>I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha

 

[nicho]

Hang on a minute Jim, and just think about this. Do you really want to swap your Ben, which has seen you through thick and thin, with (OK !) a rudder problem, no matter what you have presented it with (and only you really know how much abuse you've given it) and recovered from a knockdown that most other boats would have suffered anyway. A boat that gives you modernity, a pleasant, warm interior, with space for all the the family, for:

....a boat that maybe has a somewhat better pedigree sailing wise, but one that gives you cramped accomodation, a poor aft cabin fit for one person only, damp, condensation, wet bilges, and one that generally needs a fortune spending on it due to it's age?? I don't think so - what extra would it give you??

Having spent 5 days on a sadler 34 (albeit a pretty knackered school boat), I can tell you it would suffer from all these things, and the family may well vote with their feet!!

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[jimi]

Acshully this is being partially driven by SWMBO who loved the deep cockpit and easy motion of the Sadler 29!

<hr width=100% size=1>I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha

 

[Robin]

Hi Jimi

If you are really thinking of a change then we need more information to make sensible suggestions:-

Approximate budget (ie the figure AFTER any upgrade or extras to meet specific needs)?
What do you want in the way of home comforts, layout, number and type of berths, shower, galley, fridge?
What do you want in the way of performance (heavy weather, light winds, ocean ready)?
What do you expect under engine?
What kind of keel, deep fin, shallow fin, lifting keel, bilge keels?

There are some good and affordable boats out there once you define your real wishes. Remember though that size for size bigger is generally better, waterline length gives you pace and space, less compromises of the wish list but set against capital cost, mooring and maintenance costs. Remember too that more time is spent in harbour (even on a RTW boat) than at sea, more in light winds than in F9s (with notable exceptions!).

Personally I have never bought a new boat and I wouldn't have chosen one like your current one (not a criticism just a personal preference) but IF I had I wouldn't swap it now for an older one of the same size like the Sadler 34. Nothing wrong with the Sadler 34 which is an excellent boat - if you are trading up from say a 26ft to 28ft boat - but trading a modern 33 for an older 34 that was small for it's size even when built doesn't make sense IMO.

In your shoes I would be looking at nothing less than 36ft to 38ft and looking secondhand to offset some of the additional cost, otherwise I would stick with what I had a little longer.

Robin



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[robp]

I agree with Robin's post of this morning. Sadler 34 is a good sailing boat but it might be difficult after a modern Ben. Wait and find a 36 or 38 ft modern boat with similar characteristics to the Sadler if you like it. IMHO of course.

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[Twister_Ken]

Best of both worlds

A new <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.selectyachts.co.uk/hunterhome.asp?ArtID=6>Hunter Mystery</A>.

Old fashioned virtues, modern underwater shape, new kit.

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