New or old ?

As an old boat owner, (the boat, not me, yet,) I am always amazed by how well SWMBO puts up with all the damp, drips and smells, and when looking at a new shiny boat will sometimes criticise it for not being a "real" boat like ours, and find reasons why ours is better. Looks, low freeboard and solidity seem to come high on the list.


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OK say I get £70K for my current boat, I do'nt really want to spend any more so I'd thought about £40K for a boat then c£20K to bring it up to scratch .. ishh.

Disagree about the Sadler being a lot less spacious , whilst prima facie less cavernous, the space is laid out well with more stowage etc.

Have no issues about the Beneteau at all,its proved to be an excellent safe family sailing boat with the only problem so far being a lack of pointing ability when beating hard to windward in F8 in a winter channel gale. I suppose we just fancy a change really. In fact as the girls are getting older they are sailing less with us and it tends to be just me SWMBO and youngest so space is actually less of an issue.


<hr width=100% size=1>I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha
 
I strongly agree that a less-mass-produced boat will well be more fixable, repairable, upgradeable. A new boat includes lots of new (yet poxy) equipment which it isn't really viable to start ripping out and replacing.

secondhand boats can also start off looking as bad as they are likely to be in your ownership. Whereas new boats are always shown better than they are ever likely to look in reall life, unless you can find a nice undercover berth with carpeted pontoon fittting snugly around it and about 30 spotlights directed on to the deck.

no offence but is the benny worth £70k? Aren't newboat prices esp bavs pulling down these prices?



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£70K .. mm . probably not, but the sails are newish (3 genoas + 2 mains) + lots of top quality extras .. personally I don't think the Ben & the Bav are really in the same market .. eg the Bav of the same length is 1T ie25% lighter.

<hr width=100% size=1>I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha
 
Re: poxy equipment?

> A new boat includes lots of new (yet poxy) equipment

Err where are you coming from? Are you comparing like with like?

No doubt the deck fittings on a 30 year old Nicholson will look substantial and chunky providing you ignore those old brown plastic looking halyard winches and don't spin the knackered genoa winches.

However given a chance to lift the deck fittings off a 20 year old Westerly Fulmar or new Bavaria 32 the Bav would be my choice any day.

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OK so probably the same cruising grounds & conditions. The Sadler 34 would do everything you want, but it is still small for it's size and the double skin moulding also reduces some of the interior volume whilst providing a nice smooth dry surface. It is a lot smaller than a Westerly Discus for comparison purposes.

Within your overall budget and with different purchase cost/upgrade cost ratios I would consider:-

Westerly Discus 33
Westerly Storm 33
Westerly Conway 36
Westerly Corsair 36
Westerly Typhoon 37

Moody 34
Moody 346

Sigma 36/362
Sigma 38
Sigma 41

Going a bit older:-

Trapper 700 (35ft)
Hustler 35 (cruising layout)
UFO 34 (cruising layout)
Nicholson 35
Oyster 35

But don't forget also the Bennies and Jennies of the 80's either:

Beneteau First 38
Beneteau First 375
Beneteau First 40.7

Jeanneau Sun Shine 36/38
Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40
Jeanneau Sun Legende 41

There are no doubt others if my memory will allow....

Robin








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Re: New New

Jimi,

I am moving in the opposite direction to you having got rid of my problematic old Nicholson last autumn.

Over the last 4 months I have looked at Bens and Bav in great detail having inspected possibly 30+ older boats in the previous 3 years. Owners have said that my viewings have felt more like a survey.

Myths abound regarding the quality of the older yachts and I have read two survey reports of a Sadler 34 6 years apart and reading between the lines any purchaser was going to have to accept that the cored hull had gone soft in one location and the next owner would basically have to live with it.

Many 70's and 80's yachts have fundamental design errors or systematic manufacturing faults. It took the yachting industry 20 years to get from integrity though simplistic oversized GRP laminate to strength through design and consistent production quality standards. The 20 years in between has proven very costly for owners.

Last month I shyed away from buying a cruiser oriented Ben or Bav because ultimately I did not think I would be happy sailing a yacht with a ballast ratio of 32% or below. Having kept my cash dry for this sailing season I am currently watching developments of the Bavaria 35 Match. Nice deep keel, near 40% ballast ratio, big rudder with grip, slim snout but it remains to be seen whether this design could be suitably configured as a fast English Channel passage maker - a deep cockpit would be nice.

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We had the same dilemna a couple of years ago, and had more or less settled on a new HR36 as a well-built boat which would hold its price. There's a wait time of around 18 months from ordering. One thing we didn't like was the aft cabin layout (double plus single) so we asked about changing this. We were told in no uncertain terms that there would be no changes. This intransigence when spending 160k (which we couldn't really afford) rather put us off, and we decided to look at some second-hand boats.

In the end we bought our current boat (built 89) knowing that we would have to spend at least another 20-25k to get her up to scratch. This included the cost of new sails & rigging, refurbishing the deck, new windlass, new plumbing, shore power plus battery management system, new VHF/EPIRB and good dinghy/outboard. SWMBO doesn't like the upholstery and so that has to change this year.

It's ongoing, but we will end up with a boat in top nick which is tailored to our needs - I reckon it takes at least 3 seasons to do this (having done it before). I tend to leave the interior until last as this is the most satisfying bit.

Current projects include the deck and fitting a removable inner forestay as she will easily handle a blow with the right canvas. I just had a quote for this and will go ahead. I'm hoping this will transform her pointing ability in heavy winds.

The deck has provided a pleasant surprise as it was fastened with plugged round-headed screws and many of the heads are now exposed. There is little wear of the deck (max 1.5mm on original 9.5mm), and we discovered that we can bury countersunk screws and re-plug saving us a small fortune on our estimated costs. We've done a trial area and I'm waiting now awaiting 2,000 8mm teak plugs!

I quite enjoy the mix of working on the boat and sailing her as I'm getting to know every inch of her. Best investment yet has been a set of plans from Holman & Pye.

Doing up an older boat isn't everybody's cup of tea, but I'm enjoying it and reckon that by project managing any work you can save a small fortune.

As to which boat, why not draw up a short list and try to blag a sail on each via the forum?

Tom

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Buy an old/used boat and you'll be buying someone else's problems.
You'll also get a load of old kit that's obsolete and on it's last legs.

However, if you can take your time, choose carefully, find a good surveyor and keep enough in the budget for a re-fit, you could end up with a gem.

Don't forget that a brand new boat can have just as many faults and it's well worth getting a surveyor onboard, if possible before you part with the final payment.

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Re: New New

Hmmmm....
Ballast ratio of over 40%....sounds like my Dehler 37 then, which "weighs" in at 42.8% apparently
I went for an 8 year old, better quality boat (I know that's in my opinion!) rather than a brand new ben/bav/jen because of built quality and equipment...plus it sailed well!!!
Horses for courses I guess!!
Nick

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IIRC, the Sadler 29 was a simple stretch of the David Sadler designed 26. I don't mean just lengthened by extending the stern, but son Martin stretched the station spacings and redid the sheer.

The 34, however, was an all new design (by Martin S I think) and is not at all like the rather sweet handling 26 or 29. I too would be a bit suspicious of foam filling by now.

I like Robin's suggestions, First 38 was tough as old boots and sailed very well. Loads of space too.

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.
 
Similar decision route to us with similar results! We are now starting our 3rd season with virtually everything done and have an excellent boat, superbly equipped and at a fraction of the cost of new, the only thing that is knackered on the boat is me, but not from the work on the boat....

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Come on Jimi - you missed the best buy of the year - why not do a plunge to a real boat - I am like you thinking where to go next having sold Corsair - sailed a Bav 38 last weekend - wonderfully laid out - good equipment level - but Oh so lightly built.

I was also somewhat dissapointed in her performance in 12 knots of wind - my old Victory - even in that light wind would get them same speed. Under engine - I would have a knot or more advantage - and into a F8. When the wind piped up later in the afternoon - it showed what a crap boat it was - gripping up into the wind - well what do you expect from that amount of beam. NO Bav for me.

So where do we go - I want something for leaving in Turkey for 3 months a year sailing. Have you looked at the Dehlerrs - I understand they are much more soundly built than others.....

Lastly - when buying new - you should consider that depreciation of the vast number of new boats is going to be very high. Against this is low maintenance - that is untill they start to fall to bits. Do you have the time to maintain an older boat. One of the reasons for selling Corsair was that I was falling behind with the maintenance - and I would long for a boat with less. So a big dilema.

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Hi Chris

Your very nice Corsair was though a high maintenance oldie by virtue of some very attractive woodwork. The same doesn't apply to many others once initially brought up to scratch (or should that be scratchless?). We had no more maintenance on our old W33 (after the initial blitz) than on a new boat and the same goes for our current love.

Design characteristics are what makes for bad handling and performance rather than the manufacturer who has simply selected a design for the market he is in for that model in his range. Beamy and shallow caravans don't sail but do sell no matter who the builder is (was) Westerly, Moody, Halberg Rassy, Malo or Benny Jenny Bavvy. Narrow and heavy may be good for heavy weather but below in harbour can be cramped airless and damp. Like all things affordable, compromise is the thing and not the same to all men. Each design therefore needs to be judged on it's merits for the intended use, the builder is a consideration but secondary to the choice first of the design. All IMHO of course!

Robin

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Re: poxy equipment explained

ah, you misunderstand, sorry. Yep, the bav gear will be newer, and the 15 yearold sadler/whatever will be older, no question.

But one has no qualms ripping out and replacing the old gear (bilge pump, decca etc) in the old thing - and note jimi made allowance for this of almost 50% on top of buy price.

whereas by contrast one would be less inclined to start ripping into a new boat's gear - it's new. But instead of being a bit overengineered or your preferred make or a bit better or whatever, it's supplied to a tighter budget and price.

It's also a psychological thing too - a fair few busted things on a secondhand boat have been factored in, usually. Whereas replacing things on a new boat is a cue to wait and go potty at the salesperson and wait some more. Not to nip down to the chandlers and drool at intersting bilge pumps or nav gear.

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Re: swmbo aspect

fair enuf re price

Easily the most important thing is to get a boat that swmbo chooses. Howevr, this can make it very hard to sell the thing and replace with summink else, ever, although i suppose it is a better class of problem.

HOWEVER of course the main reason is the loot: you can spend double the amount of money on a boat that swmbo chooses, really, cos it's half yours and half hers. Even more, in fact, if you name it after her, and you can economise on junk like jewellery and shoes too, and indeed continue to buy hoardes of nice chandlery and boat gear and charts, all of which are validly "hers" cos thiv got her name onnem, ahem.

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The answer depends on how much time and cash you have.

If you are time poor and cash poor, then old.

If you are time rich and cash poor, then old.

If you are time poor and cash rich, then new.

If you are time rich and cash rich, then I want to know your secret ! This would then boil down to :-

Whether DIY floats your boat man
You can afford to trade up regularly when the newer boats start to need real work.

Personally, having read all the threads complaining about other people's lack of low speed boat control, you might be less stressed with an older boat.

(is'nt it funny that my hand painted morris marina never suffered parking damage, but my shiny executive car attracts bad parkers like a magnet, even if it's parked at the far end of Tesco's in an empty row, I still find it surrounded by rusty people carriers when I come back).


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ooh, nct, you can have my snob award for those car references. With a new car, park diagonally so they can't ding the car and put in a little sign in the back that says "yeah - i know i'm using two parking spaces - worth twice as much, see?"

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Feeling very smug...
I bought an oldish Bav390(91 model) in 2002...sailed her over 10,000 miles in 10 months...then sold her end of last year for more than I'd paid! (and the sails were knackered by then, along with gooseneck, another 500 hours on the engine etc etc)
Definately S/H just takes some time to find the good ones....now I've got a Merlin rocket (vintage of course)

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