New Boat, Swedish Delta "Yacht" - anyone got any info? Jack?
- Thread starter jfm
- Start date
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Haha, good thing that you added the smiley to your last objection! 
But FYI (since you're new to the asylum), you might be interested to know that also others around here are as good as myself, if not better, at understanding where some boating design elements are included for their own sake, rather than follow meaningful functions.
And some of them might well be genuinely interested in Delta boats...
But FYI (since you're new to the asylum), you might be interested to know that also others around here are as good as myself, if not better, at understanding where some boating design elements are included for their own sake, rather than follow meaningful functions.
And some of them might well be genuinely interested in Delta boats...
sarabande
Well-Known Member
IIRC the Aga Khan's recent boat had three RR waterjets powered by gas turbines.
Given the flexibility of installing GTs at various angles, would a propulsion/power package of one big and one small GT running an all-electric shrouded prop system in e.g. tunnels (?) give you the flexibility of D and planing speeds, and the ability to shut off a tunnel to reduce drag at displacement speeds.
Given the flexibility of installing GTs at various angles, would a propulsion/power package of one big and one small GT running an all-electric shrouded prop system in e.g. tunnels (?) give you the flexibility of D and planing speeds, and the ability to shut off a tunnel to reduce drag at displacement speeds.
Fishtigua
Well-Known Member
If you ran your own small, oil rich country, then yes. Anything is possible.
sarabande
Well-Known Member
I have no idea of the relative efficiencies of reciprocating diesel and diesel GT, but have an idea from something I read that turbines have a wider operating power envelope, and a larger power to weight ratio than diesel reciprocating. Given the comments about size of the engine room, CofG, and the diversion into types of propellor, I thought, as a raggie, I would explore some concepts.
The idea of assymetric engine configurations is not new, with many fishing and cruising boats having a main and 'wing' engine. Some of the discussion here relates to the ability to 'loiter' economically, but also to go WOT when the mood and wallet takes you. If unused props are a big source of drag, then why not put them in tunnels, with bow caps, like torpedo tubes. From then on it's a small step to a water jet system.
I'm not being contentious for the sake of it.
The idea of assymetric engine configurations is not new, with many fishing and cruising boats having a main and 'wing' engine. Some of the discussion here relates to the ability to 'loiter' economically, but also to go WOT when the mood and wallet takes you. If unused props are a big source of drag, then why not put them in tunnels, with bow caps, like torpedo tubes. From then on it's a small step to a water jet system.
I'm not being contentious for the sake of it.
Designo
Well-Known Member
Haha, good thing that you added the smiley to your last objection!
But FYI (since you're new to the asylum), you might be interested to know that also others around here are as good as myself, if not better, at understanding where some boating design elements are included for their own sake, rather than follow meaningful functions.
And some of them might well be genuinely interested in Delta boats...
Thanks for telling me, we have sold about 350 boats with that kind of design elements, what a waste... I am checking out.
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Well, I did say it can impress someone at boat shows, didn't I?
I only pointed out that around here someone might have different views, and some of the Qs that were already posted are a proof of that.
This doesn't mean that your whole work is a waste - this thread wouldn't exist, in such case.
And that's your inference, not mine, anyway.
Door Mop
Member
Ok, MapisM, you've said your bit. The designer obviously knows what he is doing because he IS the designer. He has created a lovely craft that you keep 'slagging of'. He has spent a long time designing it and has been good enough to join this forum to discuss his design with us. All you have given him is snidey remarks that aren't helping JFM in his bid to buy a new boat. Great job on the design, designo
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vision
Member
Oh well said Door Mop. There really should be a "like" button. I am sorry MapisM but sometimes you can go on and on and on and it puts people of joining in on a thread, as it probably has here again and it is a shame.
z1ppy
Well-Known Member
nice one, we have push out the yacht designer who came here to educate us. there ws no evidence of any kind of sales pitch from him and was simply responding (honestly and without bias) to people questions.
prehaps all armchair yacht designers should actually get out there, get funding, create tooling, employ skills and produce a product and get it to market. then of course all the boats on the water would be perfect :ambivalence:
prehaps all armchair yacht designers should actually get out there, get funding, create tooling, employ skills and produce a product and get it to market. then of course all the boats on the water would be perfect :ambivalence:
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Z1ppy, are you sure to have read all his replies carefully?
petem
Well-Known Member
I think we have two sides here. In the red corner we have MapisM who will no doubt have observed many 1000's of med boaters, virtually none of which will have been sitting at a lower helm and are never likely to do so however well the area is opened up.
In the blue corner, we have Lars whose experience of designing boats for the med is unknown. But we can see that much of the Delta boats range (SW and WA) is focussed at Scandinavian boaters (unless I'm mistaken). Being a designer, I imagine Lars will have a purity in mind and I can see why he doesn't want to compromise weight and speed for the practicality of a larger FB.
Taking the role of ref, I can see that hard top sports cruisers, to my surprise, have become very popular. So despite what Mario and I think, maybe Lars does have a point and this is the way the market might move (i.e. more people helming from below rather than from the FB). Personally, I can't see it in. Furthermore there's zero use in designing a great looking and fast boat if nobody buys it because of a small FB.
Anyhow, it's a shame Lars isn't up for a bit of robust debate but I'm sure it won't stop JFM continuing to converse with him.
In the blue corner, we have Lars whose experience of designing boats for the med is unknown. But we can see that much of the Delta boats range (SW and WA) is focussed at Scandinavian boaters (unless I'm mistaken). Being a designer, I imagine Lars will have a purity in mind and I can see why he doesn't want to compromise weight and speed for the practicality of a larger FB.
Taking the role of ref, I can see that hard top sports cruisers, to my surprise, have become very popular. So despite what Mario and I think, maybe Lars does have a point and this is the way the market might move (i.e. more people helming from below rather than from the FB). Personally, I can't see it in. Furthermore there's zero use in designing a great looking and fast boat if nobody buys it because of a small FB.
Anyhow, it's a shame Lars isn't up for a bit of robust debate but I'm sure it won't stop JFM continuing to converse with him.
jfm
Well-Known Member
Lars,
Many thanks for those replies. some quick replies back...
1. OK, great. Yes I can see that the pod reduces slamming and a hi-lo platform wouldn't. Compromises, compromises eh?
2. Thanks. I realise this extension isn't simple or cheap
3. OK. I didn't realise the glass hatch opened. I would have no problem sacrificing the opening function. The staircase design can be made to work - needs a bit of thought and I'd make some sketches. It would need to look like a work of art/piece of sculpture - not at all utilitarian
4. OK
5. OK. I do not know if you can see the irony I see in having touch screens and then a remote to cure the fact you cannot touch them! You would never put your iPad at the far side of your desk then use a remote to operate it, and this is the same point really. On a complex or night passage the pilots dab the touchscreens a lot. But this is simple and it would be easy to discuss and debate different designs
Thanks
jfm
Well-Known Member
Ah, only just seen that after posting my post above. I hope the check out was just for the day and not forever. Lars, MapisM was just robustly debating. There was definitely nothing personal there. He has a valid point of view that, in Med climes, glass in the ceiling doesn't serve much useful purpose. But it's just a point of view, and feel free to disagree with him and he won't take it personally. Forums aren't as personal as pubs (where you can laugh and talk at the same time etc) so you have to allow for that.
I actually agree with MapisM that glass in the ceiling serves little purpose (though it looks great in boat shows and in those helicopter pictures of D80 #1) but I'm perfectly happy if 350 other people disagree. There always has been and will be huge divergence between people's view of how to make the best boat - witness your D80 versus Sunseeker's 80 versus Outer Reef's 80, for example. And I bet you think yours is the best. And I agree with you, but not everyone will
. Of course, in the Med, owner-drivers drive 99% of their time from the flybridge, and indeed live and eat there all day. Hence my wish to extend that deck aft and get another staircase in.
Anyway, I hope you return here. Best wishes
jfm
Well-Known Member
Sarabande, just an observation relevant to this, from the wonderful WallyPower 118 which I had the pleasure to go on a few years ago. That has 3x Lycoming GT engines driving water jets. But there were no good at going slow. So it also has 2 x small (4 cyl, iirc, maybe kinda 250hp each size) caterpillar diesels connected by gearboxes/disengagers to the impellers in the two outer jet units, for slow/running/harbour work. (I have e/room pictures somewhere...)I have no idea of the relative efficiencies of reciprocating diesel and diesel GT, but have an idea from something I read that turbines have a wider operating power envelope, and a larger power to weight ratio than diesel reciprocating. Given the comments about size of the engine room, CofG, and the diversion into types of propellor, I thought, as a raggie, I would explore some concepts.
The idea of assymetric engine configurations is not new, with many fishing and cruising boats having a main and 'wing' engine. Some of the discussion here relates to the ability to 'loiter' economically, but also to go WOT when the mood and wallet takes you. If unused props are a big source of drag, then why not put them in tunnels, with bow caps, like torpedo tubes. From then on it's a small step to a water jet system.
I'm not being contentious for the sake of it.
pan
Well-Known Member
Thanks Mapis..
I was looking forward to a professional designer's point of view regarding boat design… might have opened up new channels of thinking!
Good luck Lars… really like your designs, and they certainly make the potential buyer open their eyes! Take consolation that Jonny Ive had some of the same reactions..
I was looking forward to a professional designer's point of view regarding boat design… might have opened up new channels of thinking!Good luck Lars… really like your designs, and they certainly make the potential buyer open their eyes! Take consolation that Jonny Ive had some of the same reactions..
petem
Well-Known Member
Thanks Mapis..
Take consolation that Jonny Ive had some of the same reactions..
A Jonny [sic] Ive quote would seem appropriate....
"It’s very easy to be different, but very difficult to be better."
jfm
Well-Known Member
Well I gotta say it as I see it. I'm very much in support of MapisM here. I don't agree with the posts above that, in effect, say he has caused us to lose Lars. MapisM debated robustly, but not at all excessively so, and he was making a valid design point (about, incidentally, one of the more minor aspects of the boat so it definitely wasn't a life or death issue). Also, everyone on a forum has to remember the weaknesses of this form of communication, where you don't have the benefit of body language as you would have in a pub or restaurant.
Anyway, Lars used the emotive terms along the lines of "the 350 boats I've built have been a waste then" or somesuch, and checked out, which is a bit high handed throwing toys out of a pram, frankly. Lars, it would be great if you came back here and just ignored that, and were able to defend your design choices, because we're genuinely interested to hear your point of view. But if you cannot accept a bit of cross examination from experienced boat owners/sailors/business builders/actual customers, then there is no point posting on here
Speaking personally, I am keen to go ahead with this project ie hull 4 or 5, and have already mentally "got over" the travel to URE and the costs I'd incur in modifications to your design. I'm no dreamer in this regard, having done 2 x semi custom 80 footers already (and having an engineering degree from Imperial, London, incidentally). But a straw that breaks the camel's back for me will be a designer who won't debate and just "checks out". I won't mind at all if you argue back to me Lars why you should not build features in the boat that I propose, but if you say "I'm checking out" then it'll be a bit awkward because I'll have signed a €5.2m contract.
Anyway, Lars used the emotive terms along the lines of "the 350 boats I've built have been a waste then" or somesuch, and checked out, which is a bit high handed throwing toys out of a pram, frankly. Lars, it would be great if you came back here and just ignored that, and were able to defend your design choices, because we're genuinely interested to hear your point of view. But if you cannot accept a bit of cross examination from experienced boat owners/sailors/business builders/actual customers, then there is no point posting on here
Speaking personally, I am keen to go ahead with this project ie hull 4 or 5, and have already mentally "got over" the travel to URE and the costs I'd incur in modifications to your design. I'm no dreamer in this regard, having done 2 x semi custom 80 footers already (and having an engineering degree from Imperial, London, incidentally). But a straw that breaks the camel's back for me will be a designer who won't debate and just "checks out". I won't mind at all if you argue back to me Lars why you should not build features in the boat that I propose, but if you say "I'm checking out" then it'll be a bit awkward because I'll have signed a €5.2m contract.
petem
Well-Known Member
+1 wot JFM says. If MapisM hadn't caused Lars to check out then it would only have been a question of time before someone else did. It's a shame, they're great looking and appear to be performant boats but people want the whole package these days. Incidentally, Fairline have built >20,000 boats and they're still happy to take design advice from owners.
jfm
Well-Known Member
Howard that's pretty naïve to be honest. Not every person who likes and cares about yacht design ought to be a designer/builder. The world just doesn't work like that. There are a bunch of other businesses to be run too, which incidentally also risk need capital investment, employment of people, and going to market. And MapisM has done more than his fair share of that.
There is principle that economists call "comparative advantage" which tells you as a simple matter of fact that the best yacht designer in the world is very unlikely to work as a yacht designer