New boat on the horizon, possibly....?

[Neeves]

I'm afraid she's ahead of (my?) the game here. She knows that style of boat (not impressed with Rustler 42, which is one of my fave boats) and doesn't like. Think I contributed to my own doom by saying on holiday that this made the Sadler seem like the Flying Fifteen with a lid.

Regarding budget, who knows? She understands the problem of selling an 35 year old boat for a price not reflective of what has been spent over the years (engine with c200 hours, Featherstream, new Eber, sails in much better condition than any charter boat, c.£700 worth of anchors at current prices, new Stackpack etc etc.), and buying a 20 year old one which needs new engine, prop, sails, standing/running rigging, better anchors, new cabin heater etc., etc.

Step outside the box - she will love a cat - and so will you, even if you really don't want to admit it.



Jonathan

 

[eddystone]

You will find early 2000s boats far better put together and equipped from new than older boats
Apart from joinery perhaps - I don't see anywhere Sadler covered exposed end grain with veneer tape, unlike Jeanneau

 

[ashtead]

A lot depends on your uk sailing area and budget. Having moved up from a 2001 Bav34 re her when we bought a revelation having grown up sailing Westerly and 2 years going round second hand boat show . So for circa £40k you could have a 2001 version and as post above shows increase to a later 2008 for say £56k. Bav have the hot water, fridge ,height below ,saildrive so straight line astern handling. If you move up to say 12.8m the weight goes up so you cannot handle so easily from pontoon however you might have hours of fun with the bowthruster. Out sailing you might have a self tacking headsail, electric winches etc so it becomes much easier to tack along plus you can motor a tad more quietly/faster but you don’t get knocked back as you would in Bav in waves,might be easier to decrease sail are as many have in mast plus you have far larger lockers plus if a charter type boat is you interest a far larger fridge eg in Dufour etc. downsides are not just berthing costs but might be slightly harder to find space, plus the anti fouling is a longer job so you might be tempted to let others slap it on unless tempted by Coppercoat of course. I think you tend to spend more time on board as you will hhave a Eber heater plus power sockets etc for heater and floor space. As a couple you might be happy with say a39Deck saloon by jeaneau but if older boats appeal at smaller size a Moody36 say but will be around £75 ish k I guess.

 

[Tranona]

That may be so - but does it really matter? Look at the boats now and expect you will see the stick on edges are still very firmly attached even after 20 years. One of the key advantages of modern boats is that they are generally dry inside. On my first Bavaria I don't recall ever using the bilge pumps and the electric one seized through lack of use!. On my last one the only water that ever got in the bilge was from a failure of a weld on the exhaust muffler.

Not saying boats are perfect, nothing is, but the boats you will be looking at started life from a much better base than older boats in terms of construction and systems and most have aged well. The comment from ashtead about his Bavaria being a revelation after a Westerly is one I commonly hear from owners - indeed heard it only yesterday from a fellow club member who bought a Bavaria 30 new in 2006 for his retirement and is still happily using it (he is 80!).

Pity there are so few boats on the market to look at now as I think you will be pleasantly surprised at what you do see.

 

[Norman_E]

Don't worry about single handing a bigger boat. My 45 foot Jeanneau (1998 45.2) had its primary winches quite a way from the helm, but with the aid of the autopilot I regularly single handed it into my 70's

 

[eddystone]

That may be so - but does it really matter? Look at the boats now and expect you will see the stick on edges are still very firmly attached even after 20 years. One of the key advantages of modern boats is that they are generally dry inside. On my first Bavaria I don't recall ever using the bilge pumps and the electric one seized through lack of use!. On my last one the only water that ever got in the bilge was from a failure of a weld on the exhaust muffler.

Not saying boats are perfect, nothing is, but the boats you will be looking at started life from a much better base than older boats in terms of construction and systems and most have aged well. The comment from ashtead about his Bavaria being a revelation after a Westerly is one I commonly hear from owners - indeed heard it only yesterday from a fellow club member who bought a Bavaria 30 new in 2006 for his retirement and is still happily using it (he is 80!).

Pity there are so few boats on the market to look at now as I think you will be pleasantly surprised at what you do see.

While I would accept that generally our charter boat had a lot of lifted or missing veneer strip. More importantly I’m a bit wary of some aspects of modern construction methods eg lifespan of the cementing in of the drop in stiffening, after reading comments of Nick Vass. And not using DNZ seacocks (why on earth aren’t seacocks composite material these days?)
Just saying I’d prefer a boat less than 20 years old

 

[westernman]

While I would accept that generally our charter boat had a lot of lifted or missing veneer strip. More importantly I’m a bit wary of some aspects of modern construction methods eg lifespan of the cementing in of the drop in stiffening, after reading comments of Nick Vass. And not using DNZ seacocks (why on earth aren’t seacocks composite material these days?)
Just saying I’d prefer a boat less than 20 years old

Could you please provide a link to Nick Vass' comments please?
Thanks.

 

[jwfrary]

Dehler 36?

I know of one coming up for sale, an aquantaice rather than a connection!

 

[Tranona]

While I would accept that generally our charter boat had a lot of lifted or missing veneer strip. More importantly I’m a bit wary of some aspects of modern construction methods eg lifespan of the cementing in of the drop in stiffening, after reading comments of Nick Vass. And not using DNZ seacocks (why on earth aren’t seacocks composite material these days?)
Just saying I’d prefer a boat less than 20 years old

For every boat that Vass sees a problem with there are hundreds, if not thousands of that type with no problems! Veneer edging was not common in the 2000s. None on Bavarias anyway. The seacock issue is way overblown (and the latest type is DZR). Plain brass valves were used in the tens of thousands of European boats (including HR) long before the RCD - which only said valves should have a minimum life of 5 years NOT that they should be replaced every 5 years. Don't recall mass sinkings of boats, despite many boats of the size you will be looking at having as many as 12-15 seacocks fitted> Anyway it is not the valves that are the problem but skin fittings and rarely even if dezincified do they actually fail.

Having run a charter boat and seen plenty of other similar I have first hand experience of how these boats (at least from that period) stand up to hard use. I too, have my reservations about the designs and construction of the last 8 or 10 years, just as I did when I first bought in 2001 but suspect it is just innate conservatism. So impressed with my first one that I bought another, which was even better!

 

[doug748]

Dufour 34 would be my choice.

I happened across this today:

Dufour 36 Classic | 11m | 2002 - Dorset | Boats and Outboards

If the OP or the ole missus, likes that sort of thing, it looks pretty good value. Bet it's sold.


....Checked the broker's website - "Under Offer"

.

 

[Supertramp]

It's easy to get lost in the old vs new debate and a Rustler 42 (or 36) are very different from mainstream offerings. Make a checklist of the design (cabins, rig, draft, etc) and equipment that you would regard as desirable. Match your possibles to the checklist and see what emerges. Think carefully - twin rudders are an example of a Marmite type feature. Also for me a really good autopilot is a massive aid - one that engages instantly and deals with a F6 quartering sea.

When I did this I was surprised to see a catamaran made it onto my list although I rejected it in the end.

Most boats at the 20 year mark will need stuff doing and beware all the fiddly little things that have succombed to UV or seawater or just old age. They take time to fix.

 

[eddystone]

Nick Vass came up because yesterday in a boatyard office I idly picked up an old YM (possibly September 21) with a boat test - they use Nick for surveyors comments and he did the survey on my boat nearly 10 years ago. The boat in question was an Oceanis 351 (?) mid 90's.

Really don't want to turn this into MOB vs AWB (though if we do could we include anchors - just like trailing a bucket of blood in the water to attract sharks) just saying the Jeanneau we had, and was on its last but 2 charter, hadn't stood up that well. The bowsprit/roller was attached by three bolts - the front two had worked their holes into slots so that it rotated up to about 6cm on the rear bolt - judging by the staining of the gelcoat this had happened over a long time. Also the hinges for the swim platform and surrounding decking were probably 2 charters away form disintegrating.
I realise the sample size is not statistically valid but recall going back to previous decade similarly old Bavaria with Sail Ionian in better condition (or better maintained). So which production boat is most durable, Bavaria, Hanse, Dufour? There is a Wauquiez 40DS on a mooring near me but suspect way out of price bracket (even ifI knew what that was!)

 

[ashtead]

Sadly I suspect the answer of durability depends on year of model at least in part. Old Bavaria salts sometimes said for example the earlier 1990s Versions are better even in holiday model/version than those of the 2000,yet many Bavs survived the charter market and you see many 34s from the 2001 vintage around -just speaking yesterday to owner of one kept at port Solent. There is a rumour that Dufour might be better than say beneteau and jeanneau . A Wauquiez is a french make taken over I believe by Ben /Jen but historically independent but premium brand but whether it’s better than say a jeanneau 40ds I guess others might say but fewer around. I suspect duration is down to usage and maintenance ? Few bad boats but clear reports of keel failures eg on Beny First40s well documented but charter crews driving aground don’t help. If you are searching a quality old brand I would start with viewing a Sweden 42 which make survived use by UKISA.

 

[Tranona]

Maintenance has a lot to do with it, certainly on charter boats. Looking through the maintenance log on my boat, the vast majority of the work required was related to domestic items - electrics, water systems, loos, cooker and electronics. Virtually nothing on the fabric of the boat (hull, steering, deck gear, rig) apart from damage in a coming together during mooring and a split water tank. Engine - blown head gasket under warranty and then nothing apart from oil and coolant changes in 3500 hours. The survey on the Bavaria forum confirms this pattern, although long term hatches and windows (mostly Lewmar) feature as do toe rail leaks on certain models.

Private boats, particularly with "weekend" type use in the UK there tends to be even less, particularly on the domestics side simply because they don't get the same level of use and abuse. Speaking to the broker that sold my boat, and who has about 15 years experience of Bavarias and Beneteaus mainly, he could recall only a couple of used boats from those builders that had survey issues serious enough to stop a sale.

The Wauquiez is of course in a different league pricewise, but that does not necessarily mean it is any more trouble free and maybe the opposite1. Complicated low volume production boats tend to have more problems than slick mass produced boats. Both my boats were delivered without any defects, helped by careful commissioning, unlike many "premium" boats I know about! The only problems in the 6 years of the last one were Garmin electronics Lewmar windlass and Volvo exhaust muffler - all of which are the same as fitted to many much more expensive boats!

You will get a much better feel for which boats are more "durable" when you start looking, but suspect the differences will show more in the type of use and maintenance than in the actual original build standard.

 

[eddystone]

Had an interesting chat with a broker recently about market trends. Whilst he was surprised s/h boat prices held up this year he expects big fall next year. Summary of advice was to sell existing boat in the winter and to buy next spring.

Regarding bow thrusters, I have noted how modern boats have cut away forefoots so they are going to be more vulnerable to cross wind in close manoeuvring situations. How is it possible to fit a bow thruster when there is almost nothing below the waterline - retractable?

 

[Tranona]

Either retractable (expensive) or more commonly further back where there is enough depth. Newer designs where a thruster is almost a given have wider bows above the waterline which gives more room to fit the motor above the tunnel without compromising other stowage such as water tanks. On my last Bavaria the 150l water tank was right in the bows and the thruster behind it along with transducers. On the previous models of similar size you had to forego the forward water tank. Wander round the yards at haul out time and you will see how it is done.

On boats with deeper forfeet(?) you can get the tunnel further forward if you have space above for the motor, which can be mounted horizontally. On my GH that is exactly what we are able to do which helps as it puts the thrust further forward from the pivot point.

 

[eddystone]

Thanks, that's useful to know

 

[Ningaloo]

Back from spectacular 2 weeks in Antigua and Barbuda in chartered 40ft', I had to go and take my Sadler 32 to be lifted out for quick Spring hull scrub and anode change plus a few other bits and bobs. Even I felt it seems a bit cramped after Jeanneau 419 (and 389 previous charter) although I'm less bothered about lack of fridge, shower, hot water and separate stern cabin and heads. I've previously warded off suggestions of ripping out the hanging locker to install a shower. Still that forward cabin.... Mutterings from SWMBO about liquidating some assets to buy something more to her taste, even if swim platform seems a bit pointless to me in UK. However, if this is more than a passing phase, then I have to accept that she who plays the piper calls the tune. In practical terms any boat would be single-handed 40-50% of the time. I've said that if we had more than 35ft I wouldn't feel comfortable single-handing and she finds it difficult to believe that a modern 33/34ft boat would be substantially more spacious than said S32, but a trip to SBS in September should prove my point.

A 20 year old HR 34 or an even older Starlight 35 (if you could find one) would appeal to me but not I think the paymaster or my rapidly decreasing enthusiasm for maintenance. I think a few years old Hanse 345/348 would fit the bill - any other suggestions?

 

[Ningaloo]

I am a bit late on this, but I think your suggestion of Hanse fits your needs perfectly. However try to go for the 385 rather than 348, preferably with single aft cabin and correspondingly larger galley and big store room.
The beauty of the Hanse is that it is perfect for single-handed sailing as you have everything at the wheel(s) and the self-tacking jib is a genuine benefit. You should try to get 2015 or newer with Selden rig. B&G instruments, including superb Jefa autopilot, should help when solo too.
This is a boat that sails very well and I know that you and your crew will come to appreciate a fridge that keeps the prosecco cold and makes ice for your drinks after a hot shower at the end of your passage The swim platform is genuinely useful at anchor to step into the tender, even if you choose not to swim
I owned a Hanse 385 for six years and was solo sailing most of the time in the final 2-3 seasons of ownership. I now have a Hanse 458 but haven't tried solo sailing this one yet!
[Edit: Hanse use retractable thruster which I have on the 458 but not on the 385 and never really needed.]

 

[eddystone]

I think it’s unlikely we’ll have budget for 5 year old Hanse 385 - more like £60-70k