New boat discounts

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As a matter of academic interest at present, what sort of discounts (if any!) has anyone been able to negotiate off list price for a brand new boat? (of the Ben/Jen/Bav variety is my real interest)

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Buy one of mine and I'll tell you! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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Seriously though..... do you expect people to ask for a bit of discount?

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Ok Magna, I think you are asking me for the inside track, so at the risk of getting flamed here goes (with tounge slightly in cheek)

It would not be seen as unreasonable to enter into some negotiation with the broker, how that negotiation is approached will have a HUGE bearing on the outcome.

For the purposes of this thread we will assume that the broker is knowledgable, experienced (sailing) and enthusiastic about the boats he sells. He will also have spent time LISTENING to your sailing needs, plans and expectations and made recommendations on that basis.

The first thing to note is the broker's margin on a new boat is far less than you might think.

The second thing to note is that the broker will generally mirror your approach to him.

The third thing to note is that you are entering into a deal, i.e something of mutual benefit, so in exchange for a discount what will you be offering? This could be test sail rights for a short period, allowing your boat to be shown at a boatshow or early payment.

How not to get a discount. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Adopt an aggressive approach from the start.

Don't return calls and break appointments.

Liken your broker to an estate agent or used car dealer. (Even though he may have sailed around the world and sailed dozens of different models in all conditions)

Say "The boat is overpriced".
What the broker hears....."I want it, can't afford it , and I want you to make up for my lack of funds."


Say "But for that price I can get a bigger (insert LOWER QUALITY boat). "
Or
"For less than your price I can get a (insert LOWER QUALITY boat)"
What the broker hears...... "Despite your patience and several hours of explanation of the differences between the two vessels, I am unable to understand why the cheaper, lower quality boat is cheaper and think I should not have to pay more for higher quality/performance."
or
"I am clueless"
(At this point you will be invited to go away and purchase the lesser vessel.)

Say things like "Its not as well built as a (insert MUCH HIGHER QUALITY AND MORE EXPENSIVE BOAT) then go on to criticize the boat, giving a long list of psuedo negative points, and how a (insert LOWER QUALITY boat) is also much better, but for a discount, you will buy the brokers offering.
What the broker hears..... "I'm trying to take you for a ride."


How to get a discount /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Adopt an easy going, but dilligent approach.

Make like for like comparisons.

Be prepared to offer something in exchange.

Ask advice.

Understand that you are far more likely to be able to negotiate some extra high value equipment or options.

Say things like. "My budget only stretches to a (insert LOWER QUALITY boat) but I appreciate the difference in your boat, can you help in any way?"

Say things like. "I really appreciate the time you have spent with me, I love the boat, but it is a touch out of my price bracket. Can you help in any way?"

Say things like. "I'm ready to sign today, I can only afford X can we cut a deal?"

Happy Haggling.
 
Thanks,

Thats useful advice.

Budget permitting, I have my eye on a particular boat at the moment, and want to get a fair deal.... I don't want to pay over the odds, yet equally, don't want to make the deal hardly worth doing for the broker, as I will be dependent upon their after sales service, and would prefer them to be both happy and still in business!

I was really only trying to find out how successfull or otherwise people have previously been in reducing the price slightly....and what is a reasonable assumption to make in terms of the difference between 'list' and 'street' prices.... I'll expect little, and then its a bonus!... not to screw the broker into the ground...

Thanks for the advice.... taken onboard.
 
How long is a piece of string?

You need to find out more info before a likely discount can be negotiated.

Lets take distributor X. I suggest figures but I am sure others can improve on them.

He maintains an office and so many staff including commissioning & after sales at what cost - say £500k.

Who pays for the YM advertising and LIBS & SIBS boat show costs for that make of boat - say £400k.

Assume they do want to make a profit - say 15% of money involved (before tax) say £150k.

Total cost of operation is £1050k.

Lets say they sell 100 boats (AWBs) in a year at an average final price of £90k. Money to dealer is £90k-£10.5k=£79.5k


How much do they actually pay the manufacturer and the parts supplier for Boat, Radar etc say £70k. That gives them £9.5k to negotiate with , finance your part exchange deal etc.

The AWB market is very competitive so I don't believe they have a lot to play with so discounts will depend a number of factors
1. Have they any manufacturers sales targets/bonuses to reach.
2. What are you doing for them eg can they use your boat as a demonstrator or for a boat show.
3. Have they sold their 100 boats and recovered that years operating costs.
4.Is it a quiet time of year and yours is one of only a few prospects eg Not after the LIBS or SIBS.
5. How quickly can they shift your part exchange which may be your pride and joy but to them its a boat with lots of faults.
6. The list price was set at some date and determined by the manufacturers price and the exchange rate. Has this been erroded by changes or improved. What is the price in the currency of the manufacturer - can you get a better exchange rate this week than say last November when the 2007 price list was printed.
6. Finally are you really serious about buying the boat and what would make you sign the contract then. If you are serious it may be necessary to contact some European dealers as many UK distributors operate a very questionable cartel and will not sell boats outside their alloted area. The French are businessmen and will sell to anyone !

If you think seriously about all the above points you may get a better idea but remember its always necessary to leave enough profit in the deal for the distributor to survive or who is going to do the warantee work and if you buy from France the warantee work will need to be done in France.

Trust this helps and if you buy enough beer to get me drunk I will tell you what I achieved on each of the 3 new boats I bought.

No one is going to offer say x% discount on a fishing expedition but hope the above may indicate what "x" could be.

I also suggest you check the cost of getting quality firms to fit some of the extras you may want. This does remove some potential profit from the dealer but you may end up with a cheaper job, more direct control over the quality. Nearly all my problems have been diue to poor quality workmanship (read cheap) by people fitting extras for the dealer!!
 
Hi,

That's nicely put.

I have done a similar thing with 3 boats over the years - agreed to have boats at boat shows and allowed demonstrations and enjoyed good purchase prices in return. By the way, I have NEVER used other makes as a negotiating point as that is too complicated, often irrelevant and would show a lack of interest on my part in the make I was negotiating.

I couldn't agree more that aggression from a potential customer is not the right approach - however can I offer a slight caution?

It is very important that the broker recognises that the potential customer IS offering something in return when asking for a discount - he is offering to buy a boat. That does not entitle him/her to a ridiculous discount and brokers are not charities, but neither should brokers think they are providing favours by selling the boat at a discount. I know you weren't suggesting otherwise but sadly some brokers/dealers do just that! Of course an exceptional discount only makes sense in return for something extra from the customer as you point out.

I hope you don't mind this input.

Cheers,

Bob
 
Not asking for your particular circumstances but are the figures I suggested in my earlier post representative in your opinion of some of the major distributors/dealers of AWB's.

Apart from suggesting actual figure I think the main points of my post agree with yours although I accept that you would probably want to retain the sourcing and fitting of the extras.

I would comment that in my experience this was better carried out by the Dufour agent I used that the recent Jeanneau purchase but overall I think for my next boat with the experience of buying 3 I would arrange this aspect myself. No disrespect to you its just that many of your colleagues may not take responsiblity for both the selling and the fitting out.
On my last purchase I found the sales promised many things that was not relayed to the commissioning team (including the specification for the radar/chartplotter screen sizes). The commissioning team tried to do their best but had a budget to work to that prevented them employing quality labour (only the cheapest).

What really annoyed me was ordering extras from the manufacturers price list and the dealer decided to delete these and retro fit them (i believe to increase their profit margin). The repairs to these retro fitted items are to numerous to list and they were only satisfactory after 18 months of complaining and witholding money. The fact that this company's Commissioning Manager (each of them appeared to be reasonable people trying to do their best and not disputing that faults existed that should not!) changed 3 times in that period is indicative of the problem these people face.

In your posts you appear very reasonable and are enthusiastic to post on here but unfortunately in my experience you are not typical and as such I wish you every sucess and hope that your sucess forces others to change in the industry.
 
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Not asking for your particular circumstances but are the figures I suggested in my earlier post representative in your opinion of some of the major distributors/dealers of AWB's.

Apart from suggesting actual figure I think the main points of my post agree with yours although I accept that you would probably want to retain the sourcing and fitting of the extras.

I would comment that in my experience this was better carried out by the Dufour agent I used that the recent Jeanneau purchase but overall I think for my next boat with the experience of buying 3 I would arrange this aspect myself. No disrespect to you its just that many of your colleagues may not take responsiblity for both the selling and the fitting out.
On my last purchase I found the sales promised many things that was not relayed to the commissioning team (including the specification for the radar/chartplotter screen sizes). The commissioning team tried to do their best but had a budget to work to that prevented them employing quality labour (only the cheapest).

What really annoyed me was ordering extras from the manufacturers price list and the dealer decided to delete these and retro fit them (i believe to increase their profit margin). The repairs to these retro fitted items are to numerous to list and they were only satisfactory after 18 months of complaining and witholding money. The fact that this company's Commissioning Manager (each of them appeared to be reasonable people trying to do their best and not disputing that faults existed that should not!) changed 3 times in that period is indicative of the problem these people face.

In your posts you appear very reasonable and are enthusiastic to post on here but unfortunately in my experience you are not typical and as such I wish you every sucess and hope that your sucess forces others to change in the industry.

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Sailfree

Without going into too much detail your figures were a good representation. In fact I assumed you were or had been in the trade.

I am not typical, probably because I am a Sailor first. (I am in the middle of a circumnavigation that keeps getting held up by Hurricanes and babies.) I also remember the poor treatment I occasionally suffered when buying boats.

The Dufour dealer network in the UK up untill recently had a system of all dealers having to go through a UK importer.

That was recently changed by Dufour and we all now deal directly with the factory with no middle man. In my opinion a fairer system that also allows each dealer to handle warranty or commissioning work in accordance with their own philosophy. The team I work with have been tremendous and I have great back up from the commissioning side, they have supplied me with many bespoke innovations in terms of instrument fittings and configurations, but I do appear to have struck lucky.

Thanks for the good wishes.
 
Interesting that you are now allowed to deal directly with the factory.

When I bought my last boat (a Jeanneau) I wanted to buy it from one dealer and he frankly told me he could not sell me the boat as I was out of his area. At this years LIBS he said he could now deal with me.

Perhaps the boat manufacturers are now taking more note of the EU fines imposed on VW for operating a cartel and not allowing cross border sales!

For this last purchase I had one UK quote and was seriously thinking about buying in France (from whom I had better quotes) but thought I would give a last try to a Dublin dealer as although an Euro sale there would be less difficulty with the language. I asked the Dublin dealer if he could sell me the boat or was he part of the cartel explaining that otherwise I was buying in France. He said he would phone me back - he didn't but the dealer for my area did the next day with a more competitive quote!

As you are aware I have bought 2 dufours before you were involved with Dufour and think the boats are fine its just the Volvo bits that I hate and Volvos don't want to know attitude to problems. I was seriously tempted by the Dufour44 but the Volvo aspect decided the final choice.

I wish you well and I hope your success causes some other dealers to change and if you could get Dufour to offer a Yanmar option you would really be a star!
 
Lots of advice and thoughts but no simple answer to your simple question. After all, you asked what discounts are typically available, not how to get one.

Suppose a simple "Up to 5% is typical under the right conditions" is too much to expect!

Let us know when you find out.
 
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Lots of advice and thoughts but no simple answer to your simple question. After all, you asked what discounts are typically available, not how to get one.

Suppose a simple "Up to 5% is typical under the right conditions" is too much to expect!

Let us know when you find out.

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There is no typical, just lots of variables.
 
I had cause recently to speak with a Beneteau dealer in Cherbourg who was more than happy to supply boats to UK buyers - his dealer website even has an english language section.

Worth noting that his list price was some £11,000 + VAT less than in the UK
 
I got quotes from Jeanneau Cherbourg, Brest and one other French port. Once I had sorted out a commercial exchange rate they were all cheaper than the Uk price.

There was an article in YM about 30 months ago where I think his name was Roger Phillips saved ,again from memory approx £25k by buying a 45' Jeaneau in France. What amazed me was that Seaventures were quoted as "the French dealer would get into trouble from Jeanneau" impling that there was a cartel.

Bless the French, they believe in a real business ethic of manufacturing things and selling them and will close the deal while the UK unfortunately only seems interested in disposing of businesses quaintly called "releasing the value"!

I decided that the ease of a UK warantee was worth £6,000 when I bought the last boat but as all the problems were caused in the UK commissioning and none at the factory I would be tempted to buy the basic boat at the cheapest price and get reputable companies to fit the Radar and heating etc (unless these are factory fit options).

Having done a factory visit (where we spotted that many "factory" extras I had ordered were not being fitted) I would have no problems with the French factory quality control which impressed me.

Last point to consider is if you need a marine mortgage as at present I am unaware of any that will issue them in Euros! If you need a mortgage buying in France would require that you raise the money on the house mortgage instead of a marine mortgage (its normally a cheaper rate anyway but make sure you can make lump sum payments without imposing penalties or you will be paying for 25yrs).

Remember all dealers are there to do the deal its just that most of them hide it well and for some customers are an irritant to their self importance. Jonic being a notable exception and I hope he gets the sucess he deserves. Its only faitr to add that I was very well treated by the Dufour dealer I dealt with prior to Jonic's involvement.

If you are serious and willing to sign the contract there and then they will all do a deal. Its the fishing expeditions they all hate.

Its no different to buying a car though. I have lost count of the number of times I have tried to negotiate a price only to be told some derisary 2 or 3% discount is the max they can offer. Have gone back, having secured say 10% (its easier now on the internet), to look at a certain extra or colour to the same dealer and upon telling them that yes you are buying that car and that you have got a good discount find they are then prepared to beat it. I have then taken delight in telling them they are too late!!
 
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