Net zero hits boating !

[jrudge]

Labour launches net zero crackdown on boats — The Telegraph

Maritime decarbonisation strategy

So they now want electric pleasure and fishing boats.

I would have thought they had learned there lesson by killing to motor industry but no.

Given the energy demands of a planning motor boat they are dreaming / killing another industry.

 

[KevinV]

[Unwelcome quoted content removed]

And another potentially interesting thread bites the dust for the sake of a pointless rant, thanks for that

 

[dunedin]

I can’t read the Telegraph article, so no idea what they are saying, but it Looks like the main government paper referred to in the second link applies primarily to vessels bigger than 400 Gross Tons (registered) - so a bit bigger than most on here.

However if you follow through the main item of interest for “smaller vessels” (ie under 400GT) looks to be the Call for Evidence on Decarbonising smaller vessels - Decarbonising smaller vessels

This might be something that the UK boat builders, and boat users, need to respond to.
I am sure that British Marine (using the ICOMIA report data), RYA, CA and others will be responding also.

Of course, some UK boat builders are already starting to build zero emissions power boats, albeit initially on a smaller scale - ZENOW - Zero Emissions Network Of Workboats - RS Electric Boats

And HVO may play a role for bigger boats and existing fleet - Boaters urged to support HVO Campaign for #GreenerBoatingDiesel | CA

Though perhaps longer term there are questions as to why we need very large powerboats that can also plane at high speeds - fast dayboats are ideally suited to electric hydrofoil applications (many in the market already), and perhaps larger live aboard vessels could travel slower at 10 knots or so with massively smaller carbon footprint? Our boat builders are perfectly capable of being innovative and adapting?

 

[KevinV]

Maritime decarbonisation strategy

Pages 7&8 don't seem that bonkers to me - there's an awful lot of international agreement required, which won't happen in a rush in the current climate anyway.

As for large planing pleasure boats - they're a relatively recent thing in maritime history, I can imagine them turning out to be a short, carbon-devouring, blip - there's no need for them. More energy efficient power cats, foilers or faster displacement hulls would work perfectly well for most usage.

 

[jrudge]

Labour launches net zero crackdown on boats


Maritime bosses warn ‘nonsensical’ measures could sink the British fishing industry overnight


Labour is implementing stricter net zero measures on fishing boats, canal barges and pleasure craft, The Telegraph can reveal.


Under the maritime decarbonisation strategy, boat owners will be forced to swap out diesel engines, petrol generators and wood-fired stoves for electric motors, batteries and extra shore power hookups.


There will also be tax rises on marine fuel, with new boats required to be entirely electric.


Maritime bosses branded the Government’s plans “completely and utterly impractical”.


Richard Gregson, the owner of Worcester-based Classic Yacht Brokerage, said: “It’s complete nonsense to have net zero on yachts.


“The technology for electric engines on small boats isn’t really there. The amount of diesel a yacht burns in a year is negligible, and even if the diesel engines were replaced it would be offset by the making of electric batteries.”


‘It’s not going to be easy’


Jerry Percy, the chief executive of the New Under Ten Fishermen’s Association, representing operators of craft less than 10 metres in length, said that adding emissions taxes to fuel for Britain’s fishing boats would “destroy the industry overnight”.


“At the moment we get a subsidy on diesel for fishing vessels; we pay less than you pay for it at the pumps. If they even remove that subsidy… three quarters of the fleet would go bankrupt,” he said.


Speaking about proposals to force fishing boats to go electric, he added: “It’s going to take some persuasion for companies to build port infrastructure for what is a relatively small number of vessels … I think we need to transition, but it’s not going to be easy”.


Peter Braybrook, the secretary of the National Association of Boat Owners, cautioned that replacing diesel engines and generators on canal boats would be impractical.


“The major problem is charging them on most canal boats, which are about seven foot wide and 60 foot long,” he said.


He added that the available space was not enough to install solar panels capable of charging boats for more than six hours’ operation.


Mr Braybrook warned the net zero measures could trigger a wave of homelessness, as people who lived on canal boats because of the high cost of housing would be unable to afford an enforced switch to electric power.


“No way they could do it,” said Mr Braybrook. “They’d be forced off the water, off their off-grid lifestyle, and probably into homelessness.”


The National Association of Boat Owners warned that many marinas and yards would struggle afford the installation costs of extra shore power points for electric boats.


Lack of high-quality data


It comes after the car industry spent £4.5 billion last year trying to comply with similar net zero policies that have been linked to factory closures and thousands of job losses. Ministers signalled that those plans would be watered down because of the problems caused.


Ministers hope to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from the shipping sector in line with “the highest end of the International Maritime Organisation’s targets” of a 30 per cent reduction by 2030 – achieving net zero by 2050.


All ships and boats below 400 gross registered tons will have to comply with the measures.


In the document, published the day before Rachel Reeves’s Spring Statement, the Government said: “Due to the diversity of the fleet of vessels below 400 GT and the variable nature of their operations (both technically and commercially), it is likely that a range of different interventions will need to be implemented throughout the late 2020s and early 2030s to address their emissions – and it is possible that in some instances, workable solutions may not be identified.”


Government statistics show international shipping accounted for just 6 per cent of Britain’s greenhouse gas emissions in 2022, the latest year for which data are available.


Officials admitted that no accurate estimates for small vessels’ emissions were available “in part due to the lack of high-quality data available on their operations”.


‘Punishing people and businesses’


Kemi Badenoch, the Tory leader, who during her time as business secretary introduced the automotive sector’s zero emission vehicle (ZEV) mandate, announced earlier this month that the target of reaching net zero by 2050 was “impossible”.


Andrew Bowie MP, the Conservative shadow energy secretary, said: “As Kemi Badenoch has said, net zero by 2050 is impossible. This is yet another example of Ed Miliband punishing people and businesses in the UK in pursuit of his eco zealotry.


“The Conservatives are under new leadership, and will tell the truth about net zero and always put our national interest first,” he added.


A Department for Transport spokesman said: “Smaller vessels like canal boats will not face emissions pricing or fuel regulations, as our focus remains on larger ships. We are engaging with the sector to better understand the challenges that smaller vessels face and how we can support them to reduce emissions.


“The Government is committed to decarbonising the shipping industry as part of our mission to tackle climate change and establish the UK as a clean energy superpower.”

 

[jrudge]

Transcript above. It is not just commercial boats !

 

[kashurst]

it's the telegraph. no better than the daily fail.

Just ignore it. The government piece is lots of nice words and a certain amount of wishful thinking. Why HMG is worrying about big ships emissions I have no idea. Planes and ships are responsible for about 5 maybe 6% of total global emissions. There are a lot of easy wins to do first.

The IMO is working with the serously big shipping co's to look at alternatives to diesel and heavy fuel, like ammonia etc. Fortescue the huge Australian mining giant has built a serious ammonia powered ship they are taking all over the world to study how to use it, show the dock companies how it works and work out what needs to be done to make it all work. There are also a fair few wind assisted ships in development as well using magnus effect rotors and sails.

The Scandinavians now have fleets of battery operated car ferries going up and down fjords and over to the islands. Balearia the ferry company running around the med has switched to LNG powered ferries. Brittany ferries is doing the same. Not perfect but better than using diesel etc.

I doubt any of that stuff will come close to big planing boats well ever really. If they want net zero planing sea going boats just stick HVO in them - job done.
I can see river and canal boats shfting to electric over time and some water authorities like the lake district etc making it slowly compulsory. I am hoping to convert my river boat to electric in time.

 

[Rappey]

Trying to get to net zero seems a bit pointless in our tiny country when the asian countries have over 250 million mopeds and growing.
Plastic waste in the sea is increasing. Why do we have to suffer when other countries appear to be increasing pollution?

 

[dunedin]

Transcript above. It is not just commercial boats !

That transcript is surely from the Telegraph. Not the government paper you linked to.
It made clear in the government paper that the focus was on > 400GT vessels, which as noted is bigger than most on here.

The Call for Evidence I referred to is the first stage of starting to look at the “smaller vessels” - but unless you can find anything in the detail of of official papers, no decisions have yet been taken on <400GT (I confess I have not read all 100 pages or so yet).

Even in the Telegraph article itself it states
In the document …., the Government said: “Due to the diversity of the fleet of vessels below 400 GT and the variable nature of their operations (both technically and commercially), it is likely that a range of different interventions will need to be implemented throughout the late 2020s and early 2030s to address their emissions – and it is possible that in some instances, workable solutions may not be identified

I won’t comment on the other statements in the Telegraph article as they fall outwith forum rules for discussion.

 

[doug748]

........I would have thought they had learned there lesson by killing to motor industry but no.

Given the energy demands of a planning motor boat they are dreaming / killing another industry.

Indeed. We used to think it was the unintended consequences of well meaning legislation. It starts to look as if they are actually off their chumps.

 

[Skipper Felice]

I would wote for zero "green dumb people" ... with all this net zero thing they have no understanding how the wolrdwide energy flow is organized.

 

[kashurst]

Given the energy demands of a planning motor boat they are dreaming / killing another industry.

The UK boat industry is slowly killing itself.
If you look around the world all sorts of new technologies and fundamentally more efficient boat ideas are popping up all over the place and selling in real numbers.

The UK builders have completely missed the boat in so many areas - not least productivity. A few years ago Princess developed a secret new boat idea with retracting hydrofoils. I think Ben Ainsley was involved. There are a few companies building hydrofoiling leisure boats that are considerably more fuel efficient. Some are fully electric with decent ranges now.
What did Princess create? A boat that can go around corners flatter.

 

[kashurst]

I would wote for zero "green dumb people" ... with all this net zero thing they have no understanding how the wolrdwide energy flow is organized.

Pretty sure they do understand how it all works. That is why the people building reneawable energy sources are doing it.
Good job really. In 40 -50 years when oil and gas start to become harder and harder to extract and more and more expensive, there will be more and more alternatives.

 

[ari]

The UK boat industry is slowly killing itself.
If you look around the world all sorts of new technologies and fundamentally more efficient boat ideas are popping up all over the place and selling in real numbers.

Are there? Large fast cruisers like Princess, Fairline and Sunseeker build? Can you point to any?

 

[Refueler]

Pretty sure they do understand how it all works. That is why the people building reneawable energy sources are doing it.
Good job really. In 40 -50 years when oil and gas start to become harder and harder to extract and more and more expensive, there will be more and more alternatives.

In 40 - 50 yrs oil and gas will not be harder to extract ...

The tech to drill / extract oil / gas evolves constantly ... even today - the % recovery of a well is still low figures. But that figure slowly edges up as tech evolves.

Renewable is a fallacy that caters to the easily lead ... it can never be sufficient to cover the demands of society ... it is a political weapon. Bio-Fuels have been shown to also never be sufficient. In fact Bio-Fuels have led to significant changes in volume of staple food products in countrys that can ill afford to reduce food production.

Shipping at present has had its fuel use drastically altered over the last years ... many ares of the world now banned the use of Heavy Fuel Oil .. ships had to empty - clean and setup fuel tanks to take lower sulphur gasoils to run their engines.
Significant number of ships are already changing over to LPG / LNG fuels ... the limitations there are based on ship size that can be powered that way.

Its not a simple answer ...........

 

[kashurst]

Are there? Large fast cruisers like Princess, Fairline and Sunseeker build? Can you point to any?

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As yet nothing biggger than 45', but give it time. Hydrofoiling and/or electric boats will start to replace planing boats. It wouldn't be hard to convert that 12m hydrofoiling electric ferry into a cruiser.

 

[kashurst]

In 40 - 50 yrs oil and gas will not be harder to extract ...

The tech to drill / extract oil / gas evolves constantly ... even today - the % recovery of a well is still low figures. But that figure slowly edges up as tech evolves.

Renewable is a fallacy that caters to the easily lead ... it can never be sufficient to cover the demands of society ... it is a political weapon. Bio-Fuels have been shown to also never be sufficient. In fact Bio-Fuels have led to significant changes in volume of staple food products in countrys that can ill afford to reduce food production.

Shipping at present has had its fuel use drastically altered over the last years ... many ares of the world now banned the use of Heavy Fuel Oil .. ships had to empty - clean and setup fuel tanks to take lower sulphur gasoils to run their engines.
Significant number of ships are already changing over to LPG / LNG fuels ... the limitations there are based on ship size that can be powered that way.

Its not a simple answer ...........

The oil people may well develop new tricks to keep getting more oil out of the ground. But that won't make it get cheaper. The opposite will happen. The world will never actually run out of oil but we will progressively use less as it gets more expensive and cheaper energy sources replace it.

 

[Refueler]

The oil people may well develop new tricks to keep getting more oil out of the ground. But that won't make it get cheaper. The opposite will happen. The world will never actually run out of oil but we will progressively use less as it gets more expensive and cheaper energy sources replace it.

Think you miss my point ... it will never be replaced until a magic brew appears that can do all oil / gas can do.

If anyone thinks that alternatives are going to be cheaper - sorry that's cloud cuckoo land. The moment Govt's can earn taxes ... businesses hear the ringing of the cash tills ... we will be paying high prices ...

Just because offsets / subsidies / concessions are out there today - does not mean when oil / gas reduces and alternatives start to take over that we will enjoy cheaper fuel .... far from it.

Oh and price of oil and its downstream products are not decided by recovery / production costs ... price is decided by Oil Producers cartels and what they can charge the market based on volume supplies .... and then govt taxes on top of production costs etc.

 

[dunedin]

Are there? Large fast cruisers like Princess, Fairline and Sunseeker build? Can you point to any?

There are large cruisers and very fast electric foiling boats - yes.

The alternative question is do we need floating appartment blocks that can plane at 30 knots? They don’t tend to go very far, so if need a big accommodation space could these not go at displacement speeds?
Most sailing yachts don’t go very fast but can go huge distances, by applying a modicum of patience. Why not displacement power yachts for accommodation?

 

[ashtead]

Be just like cars -think you are being green when looking at New cars and choosing electric then realise for 6 years you will get hit with high road tax on most average hybrid cars I have seen . I gather for those with company cars the position has worsen recently -I guess the idea of taxing pleasure boats diesel engines isn’t that unlikely really by 20 years or so -not being political here just seeing the future I guess .