Neel trimaran failure

[Yngmar]

I have always assumed that ALL fibreglass boats had laminated ‘joins’ and/or fasteners wherever a join was required. Is it now common for just an adhesive to be used?

Definitely not uncommon. A friends Beneteau, 2007 model or thereabouts already had those same glued bulkheads, except the glue was properly cured, not soft. I was replacing the seacocks on his boat and pointed out that most of his bulkhead glue had cracked and both on the sides of the companionway were not longer attached to the hull anywhere and just held in place by the furniture mounted on them. He said the boat creaks a lot but no problems

Another friends much older Beneteau (1997 or somewhere around there) was of a wholly different level of build quality, bulkheads glassed to the hull, everything much more solid and only the floorboards creaked.

We also met quite a few unhappy owners of brand new catamarans. Lagoon, FP, Nautitech, all arguing with or sueing the manufacturers, having constant discussions over warranty repairs and their cruising seasons interrupted by having to head to this or that approved boatyard to repair another issue, some quite serious (wobbly keel without ever grounding or dismasting due to a wrongly specced rig). Not to mention the brand new Bali cat that was visibly flexing (door gaps opening/closing against the setting sun) in the marina berth!

A friend who bought a brand new Jeanneau DS had some funny stories about a lost screwdriver in the fuel tank and forgotten parts rattling around in inaccessible compartments, but I was too busy drinking his booze to look at his bulkheads! He since traded the flashy Jen for an old custom built steel ketch.

My conclusion is that enshittification has definitely been wholly embraced, certainly by most of the mainstream builders. Of course the niche builders also know this and bet on selling "properly" built boats for 4x the price to people who can afford such quality. You won't find any glued bulkheads on a Sirius and on a Garcia they're welded aluminium anyways.

For those of us on a budget, fixing up an older boat seems to be a much better bet, even though it may not be as flashy and shiny. The cost may be the same, but you'll spend the time fixing it while it's in the yard instead of fixing it in various warranty haul-outs after you've set off to cruise and end up with a better, more trustworthy boat.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

Definitely not uncommon. A friends Beneteau, 2007 model or thereabouts already had those same glued bulkheads, except the glue was properly cured, not soft. I was replacing the seacocks on his boat and pointed out that most of his bulkhead glue had cracked and both on the sides of the companionway were not longer attached to the hull anywhere and just held in place by the furniture mounted on them. He said the boat creaks a lot but no problems

Another friends much older Beneteau (1997 or somewhere around there) was of a wholly different level of build quality, bulkheads glassed to the hull, everything much more solid and only the floorboards creaked.

We also met quite a few unhappy owners of brand new catamarans. Lagoon, FP, Nautitech, all arguing with or sueing the manufacturers, having constant discussions over warranty repairs and their cruising seasons interrupted by having to head to this or that approved boatyard to repair another issue, some quite serious (wobbly keel without ever grounding or dismasting due to a wrongly specced rig). Not to mention the brand new Bali cat that was visibly flexing (door gaps opening/closing against the setting sun) in the marina berth!

A friend who bought a brand new Jeanneau DS had some funny stories about a lost screwdriver in the fuel tank and forgotten parts rattling around in inaccessible compartments, but I was too busy drinking his booze to look at his bulkheads! He since traded the flashy Jen for an old custom built steel ketch.

My conclusion is that enshittification has definitely been wholly embraced, certainly by most of the mainstream builders. Of course the niche builders also know this and bet on selling "properly" built boats for 4x the price to people who can afford such quality. You won't find any glued bulkheads on a Sirius and on a Garcia they're welded aluminium anyways.

For those of us on a budget, fixing up an older boat seems to be a much better bet, even though it may not be as flashy and shiny. The cost may be the same, but you'll spend the time fixing it while it's in the yard instead of fixing it in various warranty haul-outs after you've set off to cruise and end up with a better, more trustworthy boat.

Sailing and boats have certainly changed.

People often used to buy new boats so that they would have no future anxieties
and could concentrate on sailing and cruising.

Now, It might well be worth buying an older established boat and use the money to upgrade where required.

 

[geem]

Definitely not uncommon. A friends Beneteau, 2007 model or thereabouts already had those same glued bulkheads, except the glue was properly cured, not soft. I was replacing the seacocks on his boat and pointed out that most of his bulkhead glue had cracked and both on the sides of the companionway were not longer attached to the hull anywhere and just held in place by the furniture mounted on them. He said the boat creaks a lot but no problems

Another friends much older Beneteau (1997 or somewhere around there) was of a wholly different level of build quality, bulkheads glassed to the hull, everything much more solid and only the floorboards creaked.

We also met quite a few unhappy owners of brand new catamarans. Lagoon, FP, Nautitech, all arguing with or sueing the manufacturers, having constant discussions over warranty repairs and their cruising seasons interrupted by having to head to this or that approved boatyard to repair another issue, some quite serious (wobbly keel without ever grounding or dismasting due to a wrongly specced rig). Not to mention the brand new Bali cat that was visibly flexing (door gaps opening/closing against the setting sun) in the marina berth!

A friend who bought a brand new Jeanneau DS had some funny stories about a lost screwdriver in the fuel tank and forgotten parts rattling around in inaccessible compartments, but I was too busy drinking his booze to look at his bulkheads! He since traded the flashy Jen for an old custom built steel ketch.

My conclusion is that enshittification has definitely been wholly embraced, certainly by most of the mainstream builders. Of course the niche builders also know this and bet on selling "properly" built boats for 4x the price to people who can afford such quality. You won't find any glued bulkheads on a Sirius and on a Garcia they're welded aluminium anyways.

For those of us on a budget, fixing up an older boat seems to be a much better bet, even though it may not be as flashy and shiny. The cost may be the same, but you'll spend the time fixing it while it's in the yard instead of fixing it in various warranty haul-outs after you've set off to cruise and end up with a better, more trustworthy boat.

I have been saying this for years on this forum. It's only a matter of time before somebody comes on and tells me that new boats are way better than old boats. The reality is that age doesn't not define quality. Some old boats were complete dogs but on the flip side there are a lot of horrendous stories of very poor quality in new boats now surfacing with plenty of good evidence rather than hearsay

 

[Jayaz]

Although I think the NEEL 43 is a nice boat, I have had a very unpleasant and lengthy experience with it. The design may be OK or not, after a minor beaching the keel on my boat broke sideways. After the haul-out, we discovered that the production process in particular left much to be desired.

This video might help others stay out of that dream bubble: If you fall in love with a boat, you stop thinking truly critically.

 

[fredrussell]

Shocking video. Very sloppy work there. Glad you’re on your way to getting it fixed.

 

[potentillaCO32]

All the youtubers who move to multi hulls always seem to be unhappy and regret it afterwards.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

All the youtubers who move to multi hulls always seem to be unhappy and regret it afterwards.

I’ve experienced 3 brands. All hand built, and if I’d bought them new, very expensive brands. Corsair, built in California. Quorning, Danish, and Paramo, plymouth. Like people say, the problem isn’t exclusive to multis, it's just more apparent, more quickly, when they’ve been built wrongly.

 

[SvenH]

From what I saw in the video and my experience with the stuff it seems possible that polyurethane has not expanded properly after pouring.
That is off course not an excuse for this misery. No checks afterwards? What is that trash doing there? Peelply not removed?

I see stories like this way too often when it is about French manufacturers.
Apparently the French don't do self reflection. As in, they do not know the concept of it.

I got so fed up with dealing with the French that I stopped shipping there. I have better things to do with my time. (There are still a lot of nice French people but the balance was wrong)

 

[potentillaCO32]

I see stories like this way too often when it is about French manufacturers.
Apparently the French don't do self reflection. As in, they do not know the concept of it.

That's a load of near racist bollox. I worked in france for 7 years and don't recognise a word of that.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The main bulkhead on our boat is just under 2" hardwood ply. The bulkhead is made by installing 1" thick ply bulkheads then laminating them to the hull. They then bonded additional 1/2" ply to each side of the 1" bulkhead. They removed thickness at the edges such that the 1/2" teak faced ply sits over the laminated area by the hull. This gives the impression that the bulkheads just butt up to the hull. We only worked it out when we saw the design drawings.

.... and even they came loose when the mast foot corroded, didn't you re-tab them with your good lady wife in the Caribbean?

Buying new or old, there are no guarantees.

If the pockets are deep enough and the boat manufacturer is top-end then maybe there is a better chance of resolving problems on new builds.

The alternative is buy second-hand and it's a roll of the dice 'cos you are on your own once you have bought the boat. The longer it has been out there, the more the probability of rot, leaks, corrosion and damage.

Good news is that everything can be fixed at a cost.

 

[geem]

.... and even they came loose when the mast foot corroded, didn't you re-tab them with your good lady wife in the Caribbean?

Buying new or old, there are no guarantees.

If the pockets are deep enough and the boat manufacturer is top-end then maybe there is a better chance of resolving problems on new builds.

The alternative is buy second-hand and it's a roll of the dice 'cos you are on your own once you have bought the boat. The longer it has been out there, the more the probability of rot, leaks, corrosion and damage.

Good news is that everything can be fixed at a cost.

No I didn't. My boat is 46 years old. Its done 50,000nm in my ownership alone.
Bulkheads are untouched original tabbing.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

That's a load of near racist bollox. I worked in france for 7 years and don't recognise a word of that.

The issue is simply with things being built down to a price. Could happen anywhere, it just happens a lot of boats are built in France

 

[westernman]

The issue is simply with things being built down to a price. Could happen anywhere, it just happens a lot of boats are built in France

Didn't the keel fall of an Oyster not so long ago?

Yes - found one here:-
Experts examine Oyster Yacht that sank

So what are the quality sail boat manufacturers where you can guarantee that the keel won't fall off - even after mis-use such as grounding?

Should we all go back to internally ballasted long keel boats?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

If that one grounded, there’s grounding and theres grounding. Slamming it into a rock at 9 knots, anything would break

 

[dunedin]

Didn't the keel fall of an Oyster not so long ago?

Yes - found one here:-
Experts examine Oyster Yacht that sank

So what are the quality sail boat manufacturers where you can guarantee that the keel won't fall off - even after mis-use such as grounding?

Should we all go back to internally ballasted long keel boats?

The big Oyster that lost its keel was not due to any grounding - the skipper said never grounded, and this have never been disputed. It was pure bad design / building. But a very rare example - which brought the company down.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

No I didn't. My boat is 46 years old. Its done 50,000nm in my ownership alone.
Bulkheads are untouched original tabbing.

Really? I guess the original tabbing is sandwiched between sheets of ply, so technically, it is untouched because you can't get to it .... but your additional fibre-glass work and the corrosion that caused the bulkhead damage is all documented in your blog - The initial discovery that the mast support had corroded and sunk. The unfortunate bodge in Madeira (lack of funds resulting in jacking up the mast instead of removing it). The resultant noisy bulkheads. A second repair with a bottle-jack, shims, and re-welding. Then finally, the bulkhead re-fiberglassing work in the Leeward Islands to stop the creaking and squeaking.

Here's the last bit to jog your memory - Leeward Islands in 2015

February 14, 2015

Time to do a few jobs the main one being to fibre glass the very squeaky bulkhead. If you’ve ever watched those films featuring old wooden sailing ships like Pirates of the Caribbean and they’re down below deck and everything is creaking, that’s how our boat has been ever since the Madeiran bodgers jacked our mast up too far replacing the mast post. So now we wanted to try and fix it. It only creaked when we were sailing, but across the Atlantic we had to screw our ear plugs in really hard to get to sleep!!!
It wasn’t a difficult job, but getting to it involved; removing all the cushions, lifting floor boards, emptying the tool locker, and unscrewing half the furniture. So very messy and sticky, as I managed to get epoxy in my hair, and sweaty, and itchy (fibre glass same stuff as loft insulation) but the sea is never far away for a cool off and detox!

March 26, 2015

The white board we installed in the navigation area, originally fitted to cover up the millions of holes and marks on the bulk head, has proved invaluable for making lists and memos. It’s full! So we epoxy/ glass the squeaky bulkhead (opposite side from last time),

Wild Bird Adventures

Personally, I think the blog is excellent, it's an honest and interesting account of your boat and adventures on it - I really don't understand why you post disingenuous claims about old boats on this forum when your blog has everything, warts and all, and is a balanced, realistic depiction of life with a 46 year old sailboat. I recommend anyone thinking of buying a vintage boat or crossing the Atlantic read it.

You even have first-hand experience of one of the things that people often overlook concerning centre-cockpit boats .... or any boat with a main sheet behind the helmsman's head ....

The enormous first aid kit remained largely untouched apart from some burn cream needed on Tim’s neck where the main sheet nearly throttled him.

 

[Supertramp]

Didn't the keel fall of an Oyster not so long ago?

Yes - found one here:-
Experts examine Oyster Yacht that sank

So what are the quality sail boat manufacturers where you can guarantee that the keel won't fall off - even after mis-use such as grounding?

Should we all go back to internally ballasted long keel boats?

No, but you have to understand the limitations (and benefits) of your chosen design and construction. Grounding a largish multihull (or any boat) with 8mm fibreglass around the keel/hull join is always going to be interesting. So you adapt where you go and how you look after the boat accordingly. The grounding incident was clearly an unintended unfortunate accident. Owners of older boats often have a much better idea of the integrity and quality of construction because of the various repairs and maintenance. Their trust is in the original quality and subsequent maintenance rather than the promises of the manufacturer. Buying new I would want to see how the manufacturer's boat had coped after serious use, preferably over decades. Unsurprisingly many of those offering that charge high prices.

My (encapsulated) keel hull join is well over an inch thick. Geems is probably 2". I am happy settling for a slower boat, less space than a multihull and strength in reserve for unintended events.. Build a catamaran to similar strength standards to a long keel monohull and it will probably sail in a similar way.

 

[westernman]

No, but you have to understand the limitations (and benefits) of your chosen design and construction. Grounding a largish multihull (or any boat) with 8mm fibreglass around the keel/hull join is always going to be interesting. So you adapt where you go and how you look after the boat accordingly. The grounding incident was clearly an unintended unfortunate accident. Owners of older boats often have a much better idea of the integrity and quality of construction because of the various repairs and maintenance. Their trust is in the original quality and subsequent maintenance rather than the promises of the manufacturer. Buying new I would want to see how the manufacturer's boat had coped after serious use, preferably over decades. Unsurprisingly many of those offering that charge high prices.

My (encapsulated) keel hull join is well over an inch thick. Geems is probably 2". I am happy settling for a slower boat, less space than a multihull and strength in reserve for unintended events.. Build a catamaran to similar strength standards to a long keel monohull and it will probably sail in a similar way.

So who today makes decently fast mono hulls whose keels which can be guaranteeed not to fall off?

Oyster was on my list of good but unattainable.
If you can't trust them who can you trust?

 

[potentillaCO32]

Interesting discussion. My contessa refit has needed to redo lots of the tabbing at the bulkheads. 50 years of movement and polyester resin on plywood had meant that a fair amount of the tabbing had delaminated. Solent boat builder has some good videos on this. All the marine ply was sound, other than two small areas where fresh water had leaked over the years and it was easy to lap in new ply. In theory new epoxy laminated tabbing should last longer than the original.
One good thing about a boat with a following and still in production means that there is a lot of info and guidance. Jeremy rogers ltd, for example now recommend an additional stringer along the port side of the boat and this was easy with the berths out.
It might have cost me more than a cheapish contessa to do but there is satisfaction in knowing every bit of your boat. I fully get Concerto's enthusiasm for his boat.

 

[potentillaCO32]

So who today makes decently fast mono hulls whose keels which can be guaranteeed not to fall off?

Oyster was on my list of good but unattainable.
If you can't trust them who can you trust?

Most boats keels don't fall off. There are however many modern boats with internal grid construction where age or grounding has compromised the grid structure. That should get picked up by a survey and is fixable at a cost.
In the early 2000s we were selling a range of small cruiser racers. We saw a client in a 29 footer hit a bank in the crouch under full spinnaker. I thought that we were going to hear from him on the monday but he said it didn't do any damage. That boat must have been one of the last with solid laminate and laminated in stringers and keel support that made inspection very easy.