Neel trimaran failure

[Rappey]

I saw another video of a new french catamaran (not lagoon) that had all sorts of issues. Turned out large areas of the grp didnt have any resin and was just dry unbonded fibreglass. Manufacturer didnt want to know and denied everything

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Anyone remember Pete Goss and Team Phillips?

 

[fisherman]

We crossed behind the boat as she was towed up channel, backwards. Looking up inside the broken hull there seemed to be no lateral internal or external stiffening, it was just an oval section, which to me is like a round section in the process of failing.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

Anyone remember Pete Goss and Team Phillips?

Yes. Even went up to Totnes to see it in build.
Even at the time, the wave piercing hulls seem to have little horizontal bracing up forward .
We probably will not see a mast on each float again. Would have been fun to see if it could really work.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

We crossed behind the boat as she was towed up channel, backwards. Looking up inside the broken hull there seemed to be no lateral internal or external stiffening, it was just an oval section, which to me is like a round section in the process of failing.

The problem with Team Philips was not the design, it was the manufacture. Pre-preg carbon fibre needs very careful curing in an autoclave to get the strength. The hulls of TP were too big to fit in any autoclave at the time so shrouding was built around the hulls and hot air blown in. Needless to say the precise temperature control required was lacking and the lamination never achieved its design strength.

Neel not tabbing their joints is just penny pinching. There's nothing unusual about their construction. They are just not putting the effort in to do it properly. Same story with bulkhead breaking Lagoons. Dragonfly trimarans are eye wateringly expensive for their size, but they don't break, so it can be done. For comparison the Lagoon 45 (the one that breaks its bulkheads) weighs in at 15 tonnes and the main bulkheads are a spindly 12mm thick. The Dragonfly 920 is 2.2 tonnes and the main bulkhead is 50mm thick. That's strength where it's needed. But it costs.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

This is how to do bulkheads...

Bulkhead sanded for 15cm from the edge and then fully tabbed (or taped as they call it) all the way round, not just squirt in some Bondo goo around the edge and cross your fingers and hope as Neel (and Lagoon) seem to have done. But doing it this way takes time and costs money.

 

[geem]

This is how to do bulkheads...

Bulkhead sanded for 15cm from the edge and then fully tabbed (or taped as they call it) all the way round, not just squirt in some Bondo goo around the edge and cross your fingers and hope as Neel (and Lagoon) seem to have done. But doing it this way takes time and costs money.

The main bulkhead on our boat is just under 2" hardwood ply. The bulkhead is made by installing 1" thick ply bulkheads then laminating them to the hull. They then bonded additional 1/2" ply to each side of the 1" bulkhead. They removed thickness at the edges such that the 1/2" teak faced ply sits over the laminated area by the hull. This gives the impression that the bulkheads just butt up to the hull. We only worked it out when we saw the design drawings.

 

[westernman]

professional survey and a court case ?

That doesn't seem to get you far in the French legal system.

The problem is the company went bust.

The assets (not the company were bought). The new owner of the assets has no liability to previous customers, or previous creditors (banks, investors). This is the same in the UK as well.

The cash which Grand Large Yachting paid should be distributed to all creditors (including this guy). However, But if the company went well and truly bust, there will be very little to distribute. At best a few cents on the Euro. At worst, the purchase price barely covers the costs of the liquidator and the creditors end up nothing at all.

We had this case in the UK some 50 years ago. We had an Enterprise dinghy built by a company in Dorset. However, we could not get it measured - it was out of specification. We sued the company and won. They had to refund the complete purchase price. They went bust, we were listed as a creditor for the proceeds of liquidation and did not see a single penny. My family still has the boat which cannot be raced as it does not meet the class requirements.

The liquidators in France are a law unto themselves. I was once interested in buying the assets of a company which went bust, but could not get any answers t all from the liquidator. In the end the assets were bought the CEO of the company for peanuts. The same CEO who in theory can no longer create a company for 5 years. However, a couple of weeks before the company went bust he stepped down as CEO. His managing director took over. This same company had done this trick already 2 times before! Each of the three new companies was the same people. Each time the investors lost some 10-20 million. And each time the french state in the form of the BPI was one of the investors.

 

[westernman]

There seem to have been quite a few of these problems with cats / tri's over the past years

Lots of youtube videos of Lagoons with structural issues.

 

[Trident]

I have done several years now working on catamarans and in the main the construction is shockingly poor. On the other hard the keel dropped off that huge Oyster mono a few years ago (I saw it after the boat was recovered from the seabed and taken ashore in Cartagena) so its probably true of all makes.

At the high end you have the multiple bankruptcies of Gunboat with their famous loss of Rainmaker which fell apart on its maiden voyage and it turned out has been built by unskilled Mexican workers bused in each day to save money. Then there are the mainstream cheaply built charter boats that I would simply never buy. Some of the better small run boats I've worked on still worry me - like an entire cockpit floor spanning 5 meters by 3 which had obviously not got the strength to self support so someone had just stuck two matchbox sized off cuts of plywood in with sika to stop the middle sagging ...

Others I've done warranty repairs on the GRP which had voids like a wormery under the gelcoat over large patches - only revealed and fixed under warranty because a contractor fitting something to the boat scratched it and went straight through the gel. I chased out the flaw over about a meter square eventually .

I've yet to find a cored deck that the factory use epoxy fills before piercing for cleats etc - its always just sika in the hole.
One boat I looked at sent a diver down to check on the bow thruster to be asked what bow thruster, there's just a big hole..

For my own boats I buy good condition older boats from smaller factories and then completely refit myself - I simply don't trust boatbuilders

 

[rotrax]

The problem is the company went bust.

The assets (not the company were bought). The new owner of the assets has no liability to previous customers, or previous creditors (banks, investors). This is the same in the UK as well.

The cash which Grand Large Yachting paid should be distributed to all creditors (including this guy). However, But if the company went well and truly bust, there will be very little to distribute. At best a few cents on the Euro. At worst, the purchase price barely covers the costs of the liquidator and the creditors end up nothing at all.

We had this case in the UK some 50 years ago. We had an Enterprise dinghy built by a company in Dorset. However, we could not get it measured - it was out of specification. We sued the company and won. They had to refund the complete purchase price. They went bust, we were listed as a creditor for the proceeds of liquidation and did not see a single penny. My family still has the boat which cannot be raced as it does not meet the class requirements.

The liquidators in France are a law unto themselves. I was once interested in buying the assets of a company which went bust, but could not get any answers t all from the liquidator. In the end the assets were bought the CEO of the company for peanuts. The same CEO who in theory can no longer create a company for 5 years. However, a couple of weeks before the company went bust he stepped down as CEO. His managing director took over. This same company had done this trick already 2 times before! Each of the three new companies was the same people. Each time the investors lost some 10-20 million. And each time the french state in the form of the BPI was one of the investors.

Southerly did similar IIRC.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Maybe folks should look at the company history before placing orders. There are a number of long term players in the multihull world. Angus and I know one of them quite well. Dazcat would be another. Corsair? All build their boats properly.

 

[westernman]

Jaw dropping!
Was it a two pot glue that they didn’t mix right?

Looks like it.

 

[Zing]

That’s the end of Neel I suspect. No one will buy one surely after seeing that.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I have always assumed that ALL fibreglass boats had laminated ‘joins’ and/or fasteners wherever a join was required. Is it now common for just an adhesive to be used?

I'm afraid I have bad news for you.

Many of the high volume manufacturers have taken to gluing in major components. A particular favourite are the floor grids for the keel.

Reports of these knocking loose during groundings, even when this occurs at modest speeds, are legend.

Repair bills, by all accounts, tend to range between 60,000 and 100,000 Euro.

 

[Roberto]

The problem is the company went bust.

The assets (not the company were bought). The new owner of the assets has no liability to previous customers, or previous creditors (banks, investors). This is the same in the UK as well.

The cash which Grand Large Yachting paid should be distributed to all creditors (including this guy). However, But if the company went well and truly bust, there will be very little to distribute. At best a few cents on the Euro. At worst, the purchase price barely covers the costs of the liquidator and the creditors end up nothing at all.

We had this case in the UK some 50 years ago. We had an Enterprise dinghy built by a company in Dorset. However, we could not get it measured - it was out of specification. We sued the company and won. They had to refund the complete purchase price. They went bust, we were listed as a creditor for the proceeds of liquidation and did not see a single penny. My family still has the boat which cannot be raced as it does not meet the class requirements.

The liquidators in France are a law unto themselves. I was once interested in buying the assets of a company which went bust, but could not get any answers t all from the liquidator. In the end the assets were bought the CEO of the company for peanuts. The same CEO who in theory can no longer create a company for 5 years. However, a couple of weeks before the company went bust he stepped down as CEO. His managing director took over. This same company had done this trick already 2 times before! Each of the three new companies was the same people. Each time the investors lost some 10-20 million. And each time the french state in the form of the BPI was one of the investors.

Now Grand Large has bought this Marsaudon, a few years back they bought RM just after they declared insolvency and again money from standing ordered boats was lost.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The main bulkhead on our boat is just under 2" hardwood ply. The bulkhead is made by installing 1" thick ply bulkheads then laminating them to the hull. They then bonded additional 1/2" ply to each side of the 1" bulkhead. They removed thickness at the edges such that the 1/2" teak faced ply sits over the laminated area by the hull. This gives the impression that the bulkheads just butt up to the hull. We only worked it out when we saw the design drawings.

It’s possible to see the construction in a Dragonfly 920 inside a cupboard, or of course if you remove the headlining. The other way to see it is to visit the factory, which is actively encouraged.

 

[rotrax]

Bloody glad I chose an Island Packet!

I have never seen one, but they make a Catamaran, the 'Packet Cat'.

If it is built like the IP's I have experience of, it will be bloody heavy!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Bloody glad I chose an Island Packet!

I have never seen one, but they make a Catamaran, the 'Packet Cat'.

If it is built like the IP's I have experience of, it will be bloody heavy!

You wouldn’t expect it to be a flier then, but it’s probably spacious and comfortable. Nowt wrong with that, for a long distance boat. And comforting to have faith in your boat’s build quality.

 

[fisherman]

The problem with Team Philips was not the design, it was the manufacture. Pre-preg carbon fibre needs very careful curing in an autoclave to get the strength. The hulls of TP were too big to fit in any autoclave at the time so shrouding was built around the hulls and hot air blown in. Needless to say the precise temperature control required was lacking and the lamination never achieved its design strength.

The projecting hulls were 40ft of unsupported length. To my simple fisherman mind, 'build it twice as strong as spec', it looked like an impossible task. My welder fabricator pointed out for my overhead structures that square or rectangular section is better than round, as you have flat faces resisting bending in two planes.
But a boatbuilder told me that 'if they aren't breaking they are too heavy' in competition work.

I think i would have made the hulls in two parts, top and bottom, with flat faces bolted/bonded together as a mid section deck.