Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
Whatever we may think, we're all sailing in egg cartons with respect to what the sea can do to a boat - some might have thicker cardboard than others, but it makes little difference when it comes to taking them apart.
Neel trimaran failure
- Thread starter geem
- Start date
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Virtually all builders make keels that will not fall off without being severely abused. (Oyster was an exception)
You are far more likely to die by being hit by the mainsheet than keel failure, so having mainsheet ahead of companionway is way higher on my list of priorities than those who go on about keels.
But if you are the worrying type perhaps consider the likes of X Yacht, Arcona, Salona etc as many of their boats have a huge metal subframe taking all keel, mast and rig loads.
Roberto
Well-Known Member
Even those... (at least) two of them -one was a Grand Soleil IIRC- grounded and were declared total loss as the metal internal web deformed and the cost to repair it would have been astronomical. Normal bolted keels are sure weaker, but they are more repairable, over here during October Novembre boatyards are often fully booked to repair keel damages occurred during the holidays season
Whatever the structure, there is always a force/load that can deform it or break it, it then becomes a probability issue 
potentillaCO32
Well-Known Member
If only there was a yacht with a keel that can't fall off that you could buy on the secondhand market?Even those... (at least) two of them -one was a Grand Soleil IIRC- grounded and were declared total loss as the metal internal web deformed and the cost to repair it would have been astronomical. Normal bolted keels are sure weaker, but they are more repairable, over here during October Novembre boatyards are often fully booked to repair keel damages occurred during the holidays season
Supertramp
Well-Known Member
I understand your problem and I would start by looking at the hull and keel design externally as well as internally (grids etc). An 8ft vertical blade keel with a torpedo bulb must transmit massively more stress to the hull than a traditional design, hence the requirement for grids.
I am not in the market for a new boat but if I was then I would have confidence in Rustler, Island Packet, Nauticat (gone now?), Nordship, HR (if they still make their older designs).
Roberto
Well-Known Member
Take Figaro 2 for example (from the lowly Beneteau), built in hundreds during decades, with all the ocean racing they do, including many magistral groundings when people cut corners in shoal waters during coastal races, the model itself has been sailed very hard possibly over a few millions miles in any imaginable conditions, I do not know any other model with such a pedigree, yet no loss that I know of, anyway with that sort of aggregate mileage any loss could be considered statistically irrelevant. So IMHO yes, it has been done and it can still be done.If only there was a yacht with a keel that can't fall off that you could buy on the secondhand market?
potentillaCO32
Well-Known Member
I was being cheeky. If you see my previous posts there are many boats with keels stuck like shxxte.
geem
Well-Known Member
The damage we sustained was because of faulty workmanship in Madeira. They managed to weld the new mast support in the wrong place. This loaded up the deck rather than the mast post. We had to have the mast support rewelded and then jack the mast up and add additional shims under it. Then repair the damage. The damage wasn't due to an age related failure. It was bad workmanship by incompetent 'proffessionals'. The rotted out mast post should never have happened. The original designers drawing showed the mast post in 316 s/s. For some reason our mast post was mild steel. The bottom section is 316 SS now so won't be rotting out anytime soon.Really? I guess the original tabbing is sandwiched between sheets of ply, so technically, it is untouched because you can't get to it
.... but your additional fibre-glass work and the corrosion that caused the bulkhead damage is all documented in your blog - The initial discovery that the mast support had corroded and sunk. The unfortunate bodge in Madeira (lack of funds resulting in jacking up the mast instead of removing it). The resultant noisy bulkheads. A second repair with a bottle-jack, shims, and re-welding. Then finally, the bulkhead re-fiberglassing work in the Leeward Islands to stop the creaking and squeaking.
Here's the last bit to jog your memory - Leeward Islands in 2015
February 14, 2015
March 26, 2015
Wild Bird Adventures
Personally, I think the blog is excellent, it's an honest and interesting account of your boat and adventures on it - I really don't understand why you post disingenuous claims about old boats on this forum when your blog has everything, warts and all, and is a balanced, realistic depiction of life with a 46 year old sailboat. I recommend anyone thinking of buying a vintage boat or crossing the Atlantic read it.
You even have first-hand experience of one of the things that people often overlook concerning centre-cockpit boats .... or any boat with a main sheet behind the helmsman's head ....
We did that crossing and blog in 2014. Since then, we have done a further four Atlantic crossings. No repeat of those issue or anything similar.
The boat wasn't in a good state of repair when we purchased her. I knew that but it wasn't something that phased me. I spent my whole life doing engineering for a living. For fun I raced vehicles for several years. There was more time spent building and fixing stuff then the actual racing but that's the nature of some stuff you take on. I enjoy it or I wouldn't do it.
Here in the Caribbean, I don't have much to do on my boat as its in pretty good condition. I do fix a lot of stuff on other cruisers boats though. All age of boat with all manner of problems. I don't do it for money. I do it to help people and for the fun. I try to educate people with limited knowledge so they can fix stuff themselves next time.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Keels can never be foolproof and keel damage has been with us forever. Some designs are more susceptible to damage than others - not difficult for example to see why the "keel" on these Tris was never designed to dry out on - even if the poor workmanship was not there. Keels do not FALL OFF - they can suffer from external forces, almost always grounding or collision, poor design or build, almost never even in extreme racing boats from forces generated by sailing. Even encapsulated keels are not immune. Plenty of historic examples of boats with encapsulated keels suffering significant damage from grounding. We don't hear about them much partly because few boats are built that way and partly because they occur in places like Scandinavia and the Pacific so don't come up on the Anglo/European orientated sailing world we live in The number of losses of boats from keel failure is tiny - even in absolute terms never mind as a proportion of boats in service. Loss of life even smaller. Almost all reported failures with sufficient detail to draw any meaningful conclusions have featured grounding as a primary cause.
If you think encapsulated keels are the answer then buy a Kraken as it is their major selling point. However virtually no other builder or designer agrees with them. The standards that fin keel boats are now built to ensure that attachment is way over engineered in relation to sailing forces. It can be argued (as indeed discussed here frequently) that the dominant hull construction method used by production builders that uses a glued in grid to take the keel loads is not in the long run adequate. Well used boats, particularly those raced offshore as well as inshore have been reported to have failures of the glue join between the hull and grid causing flexing and leaks, maybe as in one case complete failure leading to loss of the keel and foundering of the boat. However the number of boats involved is again tiny. Even with the best known example (First 40.7), less than 20 out of the 800+ that were built reported damage to the keel and grid structure such that major repairs were required.
Oyster can stay on your list. Only one boat to a design that was only built in small numbers and little in common with the other boats, past or present. Same with the oft maligned Bavaria when one model to a design and construction that had little in common with the rest of the range and built in small numbers (150 total), One failure, (again allegedly involving a grounding) gets attached to the thousands of other boats with the same name on the hull stickers
Multhulls are very different, needing no ballast and therefore no structure to handle the opposing forces generated by sailing. Equally many do not need any form of foil attachment to resist leeway, relying on beam and or hull form. The high performance lightweight ones that benefit from additional foils use either retractable boards or, like the Neel designs use lightweight "stuck on" foils that are not structural. The failure in this case, as illustrated by the videos here is poor design, particularly not being separated from the hull by a watertight skin and poor construction.
You asked about monohulls and it is not difficult to determine which boats are potentially more robust should your plans involve sailing where the chances of grounding are high. For example most boats built in Scandinavia tend to be more robust because of the high risk of grounding in NORMAL use. Likewise more cruiser racer orientated tend to be more strongly built to withstand more sustained use. On the other hand most "ordinary" cruising boats that spend most of their life sailing in light winds (or motoring) in deep water or parked in a marina make far less demands on the keel/attachment structure. Even these boats are far more robust than many older designs and as has been demonstrated by many capable of extended cruising simply because the demands of pleasurable ocean cruising are modest compared with fully crewed offshore racing in similar sized boats, or expedition sailing in out of the way locations.
Supertramp
Well-Known Member
Agree - thats the sort of pedigree I would look for.Take Figaro 2 for example (from the lowly Beneteau), built in hundreds during decades, with all the ocean racing they do, including many magistral groundings when people cut corners in shoal waters during coastal races, the model itself has been sailed very hard possibly over a few millions miles in any imaginable conditions, I do not know any other model with such a pedigree, yet no loss that I know of, anyway with that sort of aggregate mileage any loss could be considered statistically irrelevant. So IMHO yes, it has been done and it can still be done.
Even if the entire boat weighs less than my keel....
SvenH
Well-Known Member
My wife teaches international students at a university, self reflection is part of some off the courses she teaches. French students, as a group, have the most difficulties with this part of the course.
How things have gone wrong with my shipments to France and how incredibility hard it is to get those solved support my ideas on why I find it hard to deal with the french as a people.
That is a generalization, I admit. But racist... Really?
However, I'll remove myself from this discussion.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
Concerto is 45 years old and Westerly used top quality marine plywood throughout the boat. So far I have not found any rot in the plywood anywhere and the glassfibre tabbing of the bulkheads remains solid. I always used to think Westerlys were floating caravans, but the quality of the woodwork is very high. This was all done in house and the carpenters were definitely craftsmen of the highest caliber. The glassfibre work was generally very good with the exception of the gel coat.For boats in the late 1970's and early 1980's they used a non UV stable gel coat that can go creamy on the surface with age, plus they slopped the gel coat into the mould and failed to work out all the small air bubbles by stiff brushing out in the mould - now I can get micro air bubbles bursting in areas of the hull underwater. Thankfully they applied a double coat of gel coat, so it is more a cosmetic problem rather than a moisture control problem to the main laminate.
Getting an old boat into a good overall condition always takes longer and is far more expensive than expected. I originally budgeted for £12,000 and have now spend over £30,000. Some things I have done are for my choice and above what most people will do, but knowing I have already owned her for 11 years and will not sell her for at least another 8 years, makes it sound expensive, but at least I get the benefit of using a boat that I am happy to sail anywhere and in almost any weather. Yet it still has cost only a third of what a similar sized new boat would have cost when I bought Concerto, which I could have afforded to do but disliked the modern designs and construction. Overall I am happy with my choice, even with the man hours I have spent working on her. Surprisingly, I have found many other sailors find me a source of inspiration and advice. To be honest I am an ordinary guy who is happy to help, I have no axe to grind as we all make choices according to our budget and experience.
When do you expect to get to a stage of near completion so you can go sailing?
Concerto
Well-Known Member
I agree encapsulated keels sound better but I have heard of major problems due to continual wear to the bottom of the keel where the glassfibre has either cracked or been worn away and allowing water entry. Most encapsulated keels do not have a solid casting inside, but a lot of ingots or scrap metal. If this rusts and expands, then this can cause the encapsulated keel to crack. They are definitely not the perfect design. Personally I am very happy with a cast keel that is bolted to a hull. The modern sealants and over engineered bolting is perfectly adequate for virtually all boats. Cast iron can rust because it is porous, but the rust is easy to get at and treat. It is extremely rare for any rust to start in the keel joint.
This is something that is a major problem that will occur more frequently as these boats get older, along with bonded in hull windows. I know of one yacht that run aground and the grid moved. The cost of the repair was about £40,000 as much of the interior had to be removed to enable the matrix to be laminated onto the hull. Hull windows are easier to fix with mechanical fixing like bolts to keep the adhesive seal from moving and becoming unstuck.
potentillaCO32
Well-Known Member
I have been working on her for 18 months and confident to be going in the water july/august time. As long as i launch this year i will be happy