NECO Autopilot Update

[danielefua]

I believe that the designer of the Neco autopilot (as used on many a Camper & Nicholson?), is the MD of Navitron Systems. Maybe he can help?

www.navitron.co.uk

Simes

Thank you Simes, this is quite new and intersting information for me. I have checked their site and surely the "control boxes" look very familiar to a Neco fan like myself.
I expect the innards to be substantially different and I doubt that the present tech chaps at Navitron are interested in fiddling with the old Neco's; people in UK who need assistance may find worth trying.

This is a request for everybody: I am very interested in whatever information you may have on the history of Neco Marine and their autopilots. From the different models to the passage under Raytheon, etc etc.
I already learnt a little part of it from Derek Coventry but... the more, the better!

Daniel

 

[leveche420]

Hi Guys,

I'm having a hard time trying to find spare parts (bearings and bearing seals) for my Neco Marine 692 Drive Unit... I'm not able to find them in Spain (where I'm from) nor anywhere else...

I really need those parts to repair my drive unit...

If someone could help me I would be very grateful... I'm a little bit desesperate...

Thanks folks

Carlos

 

[Resolute911]

Neco Comnav connectivity

I just completed fitting a new comnav control head to drive my neco 892 aboard my Amel Maramu, Resolute. The original control continued to function but I wanted newer technology and redundancy even though it had worked flawlessly from Alaska to Cape Horn and back with more than 23K ocean miles.

I had the motor inspected and replaced the relays (I had spares) even though the originals looked OK.

Then with the guidance of a superb electronics guy here in Seattle, Kirk Peterson of Peterson Marine what I had done was to wire the system so that I can control the Neco with either the comnav or original neco control heads.

The wiring perhaps is simple enough, but took us quite some time to get it right and several sea trials before we figured things out. After wiring the comnav control head and rewiring the Neco we had to reset the Neco motor following explicit directions in the owners manual I can now electronically change between the two control heads requiring a series of 4 switches to get the correct inputs.

Part of the challenge is that given the neco is a compound motor it needs to be wired to not only turn on command but actively stop, otherwise it will drift and not function properly.

It clearly would have been much simpler to disconnect the original control head use the comnav alone. An advantage is that the comnav will bypass the mechanical relays removing a potential failure mode.

But since the original control head was working and I have a spare board and compass I choose to keep the original Neco working, again as I said as backup.

I hope to take the boat from Seattle back to Alaska this summer and am looking forward to this new addition.

If anyone wants help, search for Peterson Marine Seattle I am sure Kirk would be willing to help. He and I literally spent ours trouble shooting things and have learned lots. I am willing to help too, but Kirk is the real electrical expert. I think Derek would be proud.

Mike Westley
S/V Resolute
Seattle

 

[danielefua]

I just completed fitting a new comnav control head to drive my neco 892 aboard my Amel Maramu, Resolute. The original control continued to function but I wanted newer technology and redundancy even though it had worked flawlessly from Alaska to Cape Horn and back with more than 23K ocean miles.

I had the motor inspected and replaced the relays (I had spares) even though the originals looked OK.

Then with the guidance of a superb electronics guy here in Seattle, Kirk Peterson of Peterson Marine what I had done was to wire the system so that I can control the Neco with either the comnav or original neco control heads.

The wiring perhaps is simple enough, but took us quite some time to get it right and several sea trials before we figured things out. After wiring the comnav control head and rewiring the Neco we had to reset the Neco motor following explicit directions in the owners manual I can now electronically change between the two control heads requiring a series of 4 switches to get the correct inputs.

Part of the challenge is that given the neco is a compound motor it needs to be wired to not only turn on command but actively stop, otherwise it will drift and not function properly.

It clearly would have been much simpler to disconnect the original control head use the comnav alone. An advantage is that the comnav will bypass the mechanical relays removing a potential failure mode.

But since the original control head was working and I have a spare board and compass I choose to keep the original Neco working, again as I said as backup.

I hope to take the boat from Seattle back to Alaska this summer and am looking forward to this new addition.

If anyone wants help, search for Peterson Marine Seattle I am sure Kirk would be willing to help. He and I literally spent ours trouble shooting things and have learned lots. I am willing to help too, but Kirk is the real electrical expert. I think Derek would be proud.

Mike Westley
S/V Resolute
Seattle

Hi Mike,
your experience is quite interesting because up to now I have always discouraged keeping two systems interchangeable.
Four changeover switches are indeed enough? Two switches are needed for the relays and one for the clutch to connect a modern AP to the Neco Drive. Then I think that at least another couple should be used to disconnect entirely the Neco Control Unit from the drive when the other AP is operative.
Did you keep the negative always connected to both control units?
I would appreciate very much a schematics, if possible.

You kept the original end switches operative, of course.

Daniel

 

[nmeyrick]

Please forgive the foolish question, but I have read this thread with interest as I too have an ancient neck autopilot on my 70s Rival but am slightly puzzled.

What I'm trying to understand is why are people keen to replace the neck controller? Is this because they are prone to failure and so something I need to budget to replace? Or is it simply a desire to get a singing dancing system that integrates with modern instruments?

My pilot seems to be working fine, with the exception that it always drifts around 10 degrees to starboard from the course it is on when I activate it, before settling down on the new course. Has anyone come across this situation before and does anyone know howi can fix this and how big a job it is?

Thanks
Neil

 

[danielefua]

Please forgive the foolish question, but I have read this thread with interest as I too have an ancient neck autopilot on my 70s Rival but am slightly puzzled.

What I'm trying to understand is why are people keen to replace the neck controller? Is this because they are prone to failure and so something I need to budget to replace? Or is it simply a desire to get a singing dancing system that integrates with modern instruments?

My pilot seems to be working fine, with the exception that it always drifts around 10 degrees to starboard from the course it is on when I activate it, before settling down on the new course. Has anyone come across this situation before and does anyone know howi can fix this and how big a job it is?

Thanks
Neil

I guess you are meaning "Neco"... our necks do not need an autopilot

The Neco system is prone to failure as everything else but someone may find hard to have it fixed because there are few technicians willing to spend some of their precious time understanding its simple and inexpensive logics. Moreover at least one part (a synchro transformer) is objectively hard to find. Then there are many persons who indeed like to get a "singing dancing system that integrates with modern instruments".

Regarding your problem, it can probably be solved but I need more information. Do you mean that the controller, as soon as turned on, drifts for few seconds and then gets back on the right course WITHOUT your doing anything?
What I mean is: is it a "transient" that left alone disappears?

Daniel

 

[nmeyrick]

Thanks for clarifying that Daniel.

What happens is that if I am sailing or motoring on a constant course and hit the big red button to engage the autopilot it takes control of the steering wheel and puts the wheel over to starboard until the course alters by about 10 degrees, at which point it settles and holds this new course reasonably accurately. At the moment I compensate for this by steering off to port before engaging, and then adjusting it with the + and - buttons once it has settled. This is an inconvenience more than a major problem, but if you have any suggestions as to how it could be remedied I would be very grateful.

Thanks
Neil

 

[danielefua]

Thanks for clarifying that Daniel.

What happens is that if I am sailing or motoring on a constant course and hit the big red button to engage the autopilot it takes control of the steering wheel and puts the wheel over to starboard until the course alters by about 10 degrees, at which point it settles and holds this new course reasonably accurately. At the moment I compensate for this by steering off to port before engaging, and then adjusting it with the + and - buttons once it has settled. This is an inconvenience more than a major problem, but if you have any suggestions as to how it could be remedied I would be very grateful.

Thanks
Neil

I am afraid we are talking of a different autopilot.
The 692 Neco autopilot does not have any red neither +/- buttons.
Can you please check which kind of autopilot you have? The control unit could be a 8401 that was made by Raytheon later under the same brand name Neco.
The 8401 is quite different from the early Neco autopilots although it uses the same compass and drive unit but, in particular, it can be interfaced to modern electronics through NMEA.
Your control unit shows the actual course on a numerical display, doesn't it?
Before engaging the pilot, i.e. in standby, is the displayed course right?

If you need it, I have a pdf copy of the 8401 manual. In it you can find an accurate description of the alignment procedure.

Daniel

 

[nmeyrick]

Apologies for the confusion, yes that's the one although the panel on the control unit is faded and the number hard to make out. I had been going on what I've seen of the drive and compass hence I had assumed we were talking about the same thing.

If you could send me the PDF guide that would be very helpful, will pm you with my email

 

[Resolute911]

Daniel,

I too understand the issue of wanting to avoid two controllers for one motor. Hopefully I will not have made this investment only to have more problems down the line. As of now, things are working well.

My electrician Kirk Peterson will create a wiring schematic which I will share with you directly if you send me an email address.

Regarding the switches, the comnav bypasses the relays because there are electronic relays in that system. So you are correct power is needed to activate the clutch, drive the motor to port/starboard and then actively stop, otherwise it drifts. The way it is now wired there are indeed four switches. I'll be honest, not sure what each of them does.

We did learn that to transition from the Comnav to Neco, the rudder must be centered when the comnav is disengaged. When the Neco is then electrically connected the motor should be in the correct position because there is no rudder position feedback other than this mechanical process. Rudder position is set up during a dockside process.

I will need to go through this electrical switching process several times to be confidant that it is reliable. But worse case scenario is that should the comnav fail I would have to go through the mechanical set up process that takes less than an hour or so but I'm not sure I could do it off shore with the boat moving because, as I expect you know, the chain must be removed from the Neco motor to complete the process. Perhaps I could do it in settled conditions if hove too.

Mike W

 

[celandine]

I had a Neco 692 on my Nicholson 35 converted to operate with a Raymarine control unit by Greenham Regis about five years ago. Cost £300-ish plus the 'course computer' It is still working fine if a little sluggish at times, but of course it now integrates with gps etc.

My first approach was to take it all to Derek Coventry, who informed me after a few weeks that he could not do it. (two 150 mile round trips)

 

[danielefua]

Daniel,

My electrician Kirk Peterson will create a wiring schematic which I will share with you directly if you send me an email address.

Regarding the switches, the comnav bypasses the relays because there are electronic relays in that system. So you are correct power is needed to activate the clutch, drive the motor to port/starboard and then actively stop, otherwise it drifts. The way it is now wired there are indeed four switches. I'll be honest, not sure what each of them does.

We did learn that to transition from the Comnav to Neco, the rudder must be centered when the comnav is disengaged. When the Neco is then electrically connected the motor should be in the correct position because there is no rudder position feedback other than this mechanical process. Rudder position is set up during a dockside process.

I will need to go through this electrical switching process several times to be confidant that it is reliable. But worse case scenario is that should the comnav fail I would have to go through the mechanical set up process that takes less than an hour or so but I'm not sure I could do it off shore with the boat moving because, as I expect you know, the chain must be removed from the Neco motor to complete the process. Perhaps I could do it in settled conditions if hove too.

Mike W

I do not fully understand what you are meaning regarding the mechanical alignment of the Neco drive: it is indeed a messy operation but once done, nothing should change it unless the chain is mechanically disengaged. The alignment of the Neco is performed within the drive assembly with a feedback potentiometer mechanically and permanently linked to the chain sprocket. As far as the chain sprocket is also permanently linked to the rudder (as it should be) the mechanical alignment is conserved. Of course the three wires of the rudder feedback potentiometer are supposed to go to the Neco control unit when this unit is in charge.
I am still very curious to see how your technician solved the change-over problems because I thought that keeping the Neco relays in full control of the series/shunt motor was the best choice. I will pm my e-mail address.

I had a Neco 692 on my Nicholson 35 converted to operate with a Raymarine control unit by Greenham Regis about five years ago. Cost £300-ish plus the 'course computer' It is still working fine if a little sluggish at times, but of course it now integrates with gps etc.

A friend of this forum (angelsson) just made the same thing by himself with a little "remote theoretical" help from me. He was successful and spent less than that amount of money but a fair amount of his time and patience. It is not a very difficult job but surely a good DIY attitude is needed.
I have written an hopefully accurate instruction leaflet on the matter and I will be glad to send it to whoever needs it.
Regarding the "sluggishness" neither the Neco drive nor the Raymarine control unit should produce it. My guess is that something needs a better tuning: probably the control unit.

I also have a very good modern control unit ready to be installed in lieu of the old Neco but I am very reluctant to do it until the Neco works. In fact as I have even a number of spare Neco control units and I like fixing them myself whenever something fails I see the substitution moving farther and farther in time...

I confess that one of the main reasons for purchasing the modern control unit was its fast gyro compass that would allow MARPA on my radar. Probably a childish idea, useless on a sailboat...

Daniel

 

[Guitarrich]

Wild bird loves Neco

My original 31 year old drive is currently powered by my Raymarine S3 course computer. It's bloomin' marvelous, but I keep the old wheel pilot strapped on as a backup should I ever need it. The previous owner said it worked fine on this 44 footer, but I've never had to put that to the test. Now it works with the S3, I know it will work with the new spx-30 etc too.
I wish I could explain exactly how I wired up the S3. I can confirm I removed the relay unit entirely, but then I just poked around with 24 volts until the motor turned. It was an "all or nothing" exercise! The clutch is fed through a ballast resistor, as it's 12v if memory serves.

If I have to use my backup "wheel" drive then it will be a matter of dropping the supply to 12 v first, as the brain puts out what it gets, so to speak.

 

[angelsson]

Thanks for that. I have been speaking to Greenham Regis in Southampton (where I'm based). They want £375 + VAT to do the conversion.

It is not difficult to do yourself, I have now successfully modified mine (NDU) to work with Simrad AP22.
I had fantastic help and support to do so from Daniel Fua, he is in the Physics dept of a Univerity in Rome, I have the method and photos to do so, he will provide the details for the Raymarine conversion also. Dont pay £450 for something you cab do without to much tech experience. If you can read and follow instructions all thats required.
I have also fitted new relays in mine as contacts quite pitted on old ones, they are physicaly identical and made by Tyco who post date Potter and Bromfield the original manufacturers.
Happy to help if I can.
Mike

 

[Guitarrich]

Neco - no relays

Well I chucked out my relays which, acording to the last owner had been recently replaced with the help of Derek Coventry. He couldn't get the cheap Navman thing to work with the Neco stuff and he wrote it off to experience.
As I said before, the Raymarine S3 works perfectly without the relays.
The relays are now languishing in my "occasional tools" hold if anyone is interested.
We're cruising westwards from Dodecs towards Ionian.

 

[IDEFIXHOU]

Hello fellow sailors
I live in Denmark, i am trying to help a Danish friend with his NECO 692 from the early 70`s. We have had several problems before,the pickup brushes for the mag clutch bad contact, later the unit not responding to the controller and running of to starboard as soon as theres power on until it hits the end stops.
Derek Coventry, ever grateful to him, was a fantastic help, with his backup i took the print board out of the controller removed and tested the transistors, without finding any fault, however returning the print board to the controller again,the problem vanished, obviously a loose connection one would say, i could not find it try as i might.
Now its playing up again running off to starboard, so i am thinking that many out there have gone over to GPS conversions,and have the Neco controller in the garage or cellar
and are now confident enough with their new gps system they don't need it as back up and would sell it on.PS:the Neco is 12Volt
Best regards Tony

 

[Skipjohnsen]

Hello, it’s quite a time after the last post. I’m about to buy a boat with this autopilot installed and I’m interested to know if there is any information available to connect a modern brain to the motor. I’ve read the thread and there were some drawings an schematics to be made. Is there something available?

 

[Tradewinds]

Hello, it’s quite a time after the last post. I’m about to buy a boat with this autopilot installed and I’m interested to know if there is any information available to connect a modern brain to the motor. I’ve read the thread and there were some drawings an schematics to be made. Is there something available?

I've done the conversion using a Simrad NAC3 computer and B&G Triton2 autopilot control to drive the existing Drive unit.
Download all the info from this Dropbox link - hopefully it will help.

Neco Drive conversion

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Hello, it’s quite a time after the last post. I’m about to buy a boat with this autopilot installed and I’m interested to know if there is any information available to connect a modern brain to the motor. I’ve read the thread and there were some drawings an schematics to be made. Is there something available?

I have had this done this with new Raymarine ACU400 a couple of years ago. I sent the motor to the Hudson Marine and they basically removed the internals at the top of the Neco Motor and binned them. They then attached some cables and labeled them for me. I just connected the cables directly into the ACU 400, set it up and off we went. Hudson Marine also tested the motor first to make sure it was working okay. All the gubbins at the top of the Neco motor are not needed for the Raymarine.

Basically there are now 3 cables, paired red and black per cable, coming out the motor: Clutch, Power, Motor and the Raymarine manual tells you where to connect each to. The ACU 400 then drives the motor part and does not require any of the stuff that was on top of the motor.

Cost was not much, a couple of hours work by Hudson as it is just a test and a 3 wire tails added.

Marine Electronics UK

 

[danielefua]

I've done the conversion using a Simrad NAC3 computer and B&G Triton2 autopilot control to drive the existing Drive unit.
Download all the info from this Dropbox link - hopefully it will help.

Neco Drive conversion

Great notes indeed!!!
If needed, I may have some additional and updated suggestions...

Daniel