Near Collision

[LadyInBed]

Re: Do\'nt be daft

You say you can't be persuaded that a yacht with its engine running out of gear is not a power driven vessel. If its means of propulsion is the wind acting on sails then surely it is a sailing vessel, engine running or not.
Looking at it the other way "a ship or motor boat under way with its engine temporarily out of gear is not a power driven vessel" true, but it isn't a sailing vessel as described above either, its out of control!

 

[tome]

Re: What a load of propwash

God preserve us Brian - are you seriously suggesting that a CS/YM theory course is some kind of practical qualification? You wouldn't happen to have one would you?

 

[tcm]

Re: CDW

depends what the excess is? Real adventurous or v skinflinty types never take cdw. Whereas praps greater experinece would lead one towards paying up?

If taking part in a flotilla/race, paying cdw allows you to play very close contact, moor at speed with confidence, or stash the thing up the beach and jump in the dinghy if it cuts up in the least bit rough on the last day. Er hope steve cronin isn't reading this...

 

[halcyon]

Re: What a load of propwash

It was a sggestion that at least a modicum of col regs knowledge would be useful.

Are you suggesting that we all sail around with random interpretation of the rules ????

What alt do you suggest then ?????

Brian

 

[nicho]

Re: Not totally improbable.

Blimey Ken, I know you have a writers imagination, but what the hell are you on??

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by nicho on 09/10/2002 11:20 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

Re: Not totally improbable.

The main thing is to make sure that they have all gone to the bottom good and proper. Then you only have to pay the relatively small figure of statutory damages for a death. But if you've just maimed them, you'll have to pay them loss of earnings for life, payments for suffering, loss of limbs etc. etc. etc.

A depth charge may not be cheap, but it will save you lots of money in the long run.

 

[jimi]

Re: CDW

I've always paid it in the past, but in this charter coming up I either pay the guy a non refundable £150 or a refundable deposit of £1500, I'm not sure what to do -- as I've never damaged a boat yet, but I'm wary that there will be a first time!



Jim

 

[Twister_Ken]

Lindemanns Shiraz. nm

§

 

[jimi]

Gulp NM

nm

Jim

 

[Bergman]

Re: What a load of propwash

Just as a thought:

Andrew B makes the point on the sister thread to this one that no-one has "right of way"

Not a concept in Col Regs

Perhaps a better interpretation would be both vessels under an obligation, one to give way the other to stand on.

 

[halcyon]

Re: What a load of propwash

Bad choice of words, thread at time was traffic seperation zones, and if I remember traffic in zone should give way to yachts to there starboard.
The point at the time was that 10(j) effectivly gave the vessel in the lane "right of way" over a yacht, ie sail gives way to power, ie not to impede.

But the claim at the time by Andrew B was that this is irelevant as 8(f)(iii) nullifies this rule generally.

But appears to ignor the bit that says "when the two vessels are approaching one anotherso as to involve risk of collision."

It's getting danagerous out there with all these new interpretations of the rules, perhaps all boats should fly a large flag, indicating which interpretation they are employing, and MCA could issue a new chart to pin up in the cockpit.


Brian

 

[peterb]

Interpretations

There is a book covering court interpretations of the Colregs. For those who might be interested, it's called "Marsden on Collision Regulations" and costs some £300. I can get access to a copy, though not immediately.

The concept of motor sailing has been around for many years. The rules promulgated in 1910 included:

"Steam Vessel under Sail by Day

Art. 14. A steam vessel proceeding under sail only, but having her funnel up, shall carry in daytime, forward, where it can best be seen, one black ball or shape two feet in diameter."

In 1948 the rules underwent a major change, and the rule covering motor sailing became:

"Rule 14
A vessel proceeding under sail, when also being propelled by machinery, shall carry in the
day-time forward, where it can best be seen, one black conical shape, point upwards, not less
than 2 feet in diameter at its base."

Notice that this talks of the vessel being propelled by machinery, not of propelling machinery being used.

In general any court asked to give interpretations will look not just at the regulations as they stand, but also at the way in which they have been developed. (As an example of this, try reading the judgement in the Orwell moorings case.) I would think that the wording of the 1948 Rule 14 makes it quite clear that the vessel must actually be being propelled, not just have its engine running.

Incidentally, the same thinking must have been around in 1910. They were then thinking of the old-time steam ship which also had masts and sails. If the wind were suitable, she would use her sails to save money, with her chimney folded down. When she wanted to use her engines, she first had to fire up her boilers. To do this her chimney was put up and would start smoking, so that she was apparently a power vessel. But until she had sufficient pressure she couldn't use her engines, so claimed the 'rights' of a sailing vessel by showing a ball forward. She could remain a "sailing vessel" until she was actually using her engines to propel her.

Next time I have access to Marsden, I'll try to find out whether there's already been an interpretation on this one.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Interpretations

Fascinating stuff - thank you.

 

[jimi]

Re: Interpretations

Excellent stuff. Wish I'd done maritime law at university when I did my law degree!

Jim

 

[tome]

Re: Interpretations

Peterb

This is informative and logical. Thankyou for the historical insight. I'd be most interested to hear what you learn from Marsden on Collison Regulations in due course.

 

[Guest]

Re: Interpretations

It will be interesting to see what Marsden has to say. The switch from the 1948 wording "being propelled by machinery" (which implies actually being propelled at that moment) to the quite different wording "propelling machinery being used" looks very much like a deliberate change, so would tend to support the case that while running the engine you are motorsailing whether or not in gear. Obviously, it would be interesting to see any post-1972 case law on the issue.

The 1910 rule which you quote on the other hand ("having her funnel up") implies that at that time there was no requirement that the ship should actually be being propelled. The new wording in the 1972 regs sounds like we've gone back to the 1910 position.

 

[tome]

Re: Interpretations

Not if you interpret propelling equipment to include the propellor. You're on pretty thin ice to suggest this supports your case!

 

[Guest]

Re: Interpretations

Actually I think that propelling equipment DOES include the propellor. And the gear lever. And the ignition. And any spare engine you may have. But I don't think you have to be using every bit of all of the propelling machinery on board in order to be 'using propelling machinery'. If the engine isn't propelling machinery, then what is it? It doesn't make toast, or at least mine doesn't.

The fact that it looks clear from the 1948 wording that the vessel actually had to be being propelled, and that the wording was changed only to say that propelling machinery is being used, suggests that there is no longer any requirement that the vessel is actually being propelled. One would hope that the hordes of lawyers who no doubt pored over the wording made the change deliberately.

What the change does mean is that one has to look at any post-1972 case law. Any before that on the old wording will be out of date.

 

[colvic]

WHAT AN IMAGINATION

 

[halcyon]

Re: Interpretations

Most yachts use there engine to recharge there batteries, via the alternator, therefore it is a generator. It could also be suppling hot water, thus heating plant.
At the point you engage gear it becomes a generator, heating plant and propelling machinary.

Do I fly a big lightening strike in the for part of my yacht to indicate I'm running my engine to charge batteries, not motor sailing, or thinking of motor sailing.

Brian