My lithium build

[Neeves]

We are lucky there are guys like you all, particularly Geem, to invest the time and money into what is an evolving usage (and technology). Equally important that we have a vehicle like YBW where it can be shared (and that people are happy to share).

Usage is accelerating in other markets, specifically 'camping' - motor homes and caravans - where 'lithium' is common place. I have been amazed at the number of variants, size and shape, of batteries available in the 'camping' market and the fact they are being marketed as common place and everyday. The impression I get is that buy a caravan or motor home and it is expected you will instal (as part of your purchase) a lithium bank - and all that implies (charged from the vehicle alternator and solar). Maybe I see a different side of camping here (compared to UK and Europe) - where off road and distance between campsites is 'large'. I cannot say I've noticed 4x4 motor homes but there is a whole industry here devoted to off road caravans. Here, YBW, lithium is still considered an exotic - but maybe I have that wrong.

This, Kings, I think, is a NZ family business focussed at 4WD and camping. Imagine a chandler offering anything like this. I have no idea if the prices are competitive (10% sales tax in Australia and the exchange rate is near 2:1)

Home Page - Adventure Kings



Many thanks,

Jonathan

 

[lustyd]

We are lucky there are guys like you all, particularly Geem, to invest the time and money into what is an evolving usage (and technology). Equally important that we have a vehicle like YBW where it can be shared (and that people are happy to share).

It’s worth mentioning that YouTube is also a great place for this info. At this point Geem’s changes aren’t that new in the grand scheme, although on this forum he’s ahead of the curve and that certainly is reassuring as this forum tends to be more careful than YouTubers. Especially reassuring is that the conclusions seem the same!

 

[Neeves]

I'd trust Geem, long, long, before a sponsored YouTuber. A quote "Geem's post are not that new" - he does not depend on us for an income - and his developments are for HIM and his wife - we are enjoying his real world advice. He is posting it voluntarily and I can respect that. He has offered advice without the need for video and not much photography.

Additionally if you look and read Geem's posts on this thread - they are short and succinct. Print his posts out on this thread - its an A4 sheet. If it was a You Tuber I'd have to watch minutes of drivel.

You Tube and Geem, must be where the expression chalk and cheese was derived - and in case there is any doubt - I prefer cheese.



Jonathan

 

[lustyd]

OK stay calm, I was simply saying that these conclusions have been made by many, many people previously so although you may have had to watch it in video format, or read the info people have relayed from those videos, you'd have had the conclusions several years ago. Your trust issues with YouTubers are your own, as I said, they said identical things several years ago, so perhaps are smarter than you're giving them credit for, and perhaps it wasn't all because they were getting paid to say things. I also trust Geem, and it's good to see experienced sailors with more traditional attitudes coming to the same conclusions. I'm sure his journey will continue to follow a similar path to others, with the removal of the lead bank and various other changes that everyone seems to make on this journey.

 

[geem]

...............?..............

OK stay calm, I was simply saying that these conclusions have been made by many, many people previously so although you may have had to watch it in video format, or read the info people have relayed from those videos, you'd have had the conclusions several years ago. Your trust issues with YouTubers are your own, as I said, they said identical things several years ago, so perhaps are smarter than you're giving them credit for, and perhaps it wasn't all because they were getting paid to say things. I also trust Geem, and it's good to see experienced sailors with more traditional attitudes coming to the same conclusions. I'm sure his journey will continue to follow a similar path to others, with the removal of the lead bank and various other changes that everyone seems to make on this journey.

The jury is out on the lead bank. I suspect eventually I will either install two small AGMs as a back up bank should the lithium BMS fail, etc or I will add a second lithium bank such that I have a back up. A second smaller lithium battery might be a good option with a changeover switch.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

As an owner of a VW Camper, and an active member of various forums I can say that in both the UK and Germany, Lithium is becoming mainstream, especially in the form of portable power-stations linked to foldable solar arrays.

The big difference between a camper and a boat is that if it all starts burning, you hit the brakes, jump out and run away - not really possible in a boat - so I can understand a certain reluctance to embrace the technology. I've only seen one lithium fire, it was a mobile phone that exploded in the hands of someone about 10 feet away from me, it landed on the floor and eventually burnt out - I walked away trying not to inhale any of the fumes and the works fire brigade took care of it. It landed on a slate floor so no real damage was done.

I did think about putting lithium boat batteries in a floodable compartment with a master shut-off - just let them boil water until they are done.

 

[geem]

As an owner of a VW Camper, and an active member of various forums I can say that in both the UK and Germany, Lithium is becoming mainstream, especially in the form of portable power-stations linked to foldable solar arrays.

The big difference between a camper and a boat is that if it all starts burning, you hit the brakes, jump out and run away - not really possible in a boat - so I can understand a certain reluctance to embrace the technology. I've only seen one lithium fire, it was a mobile phone that exploded in the hands of someone about 10 feet away from me, it landed on the floor and eventually burnt out - I walked away trying not to inhale any of the fumes and the works fire brigade took care of it. It landed on a slate floor so no real damage was done.

I did think about putting lithium boat batteries in a floodable compartment with a master shut-off - just let them boil water until they are done.

I think you have your technologies mixed up. Unless you stick a pick axe through the LIFEPO4 cells you won't have any chance of creating a fire.

 

[lustyd]

...............?..............

The jury is out on the lead bank. I suspect eventually I will either install two small AGMs as a back up bank should the lithium BMS fail, etc or I will add a second lithium bank such that I have a back up. A second smaller lithium battery might be a good option with a changeover switch.

Seems the way it goes, most people start off unsure and after a short while look at the lead and wonder why it’s taking up all the space, especially in light of the advantages you’re seeing from the new bank. Imagine losing all that new solar yield!

 

[vas]

I think you have your technologies mixed up. Unless you stick a pick axe through the LIFEPO4 cells you won't have any chance of creating a fire.

and even so, it's unlikely they do, a few videos on youtube.
hiding and waiting for the "right" links

V.

 

[Poey50]

I think you have your technologies mixed up. Unless you stick a pick axe through the LIFEPO4 cells you won't have any chance of creating a fire.

Puncturing mostly releases gas although that is flammable if there is a source of ignition. Theoretically thermal runaway is possible but no-one seems to have been able to find a real-world example of this happening.

 

[Kelpie]

Looks like a good project, well done.
There's a few of us on here have made the jump. I think @Poey50 can take credit for being about the first.
I'm very much a shoestring sailor- manual windlass, no gennie or watermaker etc etc- but the lithium project is the one thing I am glad I did spend the money on.
For me it was simple economics- why spend £hundreds on lead acid that will probably be dead in five years? I couldn't afford lead acid anyway, by the time you accounted for delivery to the Highlands the lithium worked out cheaper!

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I think you have your technologies mixed up. Unless you stick a pick axe through the LIFEPO4 cells you won't have any chance of creating a fire.

The phone involved was almost certainly a lithium polymer. I work in the car industry, having been involved in electric car design and the charging systems for them. They are no more prone to fires than diesel/petrol cars, so in my opinion I would happily use them on my boat, gas and petrol are more of a fire hazard IMO.

But your statement about requiring mechanical damage is unfortunately not true.

Plug-in electric vehicle fire incidents - Wikipedia

Fires can be induced by electrical faults in charging systems, battery manufacturing faults, and of course damage.

Everything we know about the Chevy Bolt EV fires

PS: Also done the in-house training to qualify to work on electrical vehicles and battery packs. There are numerous mechanisms built in to the system to detect and isolate faulty cells or identify thermal anomalies so this provides another layer of detection and prevention, but depending on manufacturer and system, there is always a finite possibility of a fire.

 

[lustyd]

They are no more prone to fires than diesel/petrol cars

The issue with EV fires is that they are extremely hard to put out and require enormous amounts of water, often requiring repairs to the road surface due to higher and more sustained temperatures. Not related in any way to boating or LiFePo4, of course, but worth mentioning that diesel and petrol fires are far less troublesome.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The issue with EV fires is that they are extremely hard to put out and require enormous amounts of water, often requiring repairs to the road surface due to higher and more sustained temperatures. Not related in any way to boating or LiFePo4, of course, but worth mentioning that diesel and petrol fires are far less troublesome.

This is what made me think about a floodable chamber for Li batteries on board - but life is too short, the risk is low enough IMO that it doesn't warrant anything drastic as mitigation. Temperature monitoring, quick disconnect, easy access and chuck 'em overboard if they start to overheat? I've had one lead acid boil on me in twenty years and that was very unpleasant.

 

[lustyd]

This is what made me think about a floodable chamber for Li batteries on board - but life is too short, the risk is low enough

It's a completely different scenario. The LiFePo4 on board don't need a floodable chamber because they don't have the fire risk that EVs have. It's like treating GRP for woodworm, you just don't need to do it.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

It's a completely different scenario. The LiFePo4 on board don't need a floodable chamber because they don't have the fire risk that EVs have. It's like treating GRP for woodworm, you just don't need to do it.

I beg to differ .... seen small scale fires on burning batteries as my employer was experimenting how best to deal with them - we all have to do fire training every year at work and battery fires are a category in their own right.

I would not under any circumstances like to have that going off in my bilges thank you. However the probability is low and a gas explosion or a petrol fire would be just as disastrous on board - use only quality components from reputable manufacturers and have a temperature alarm would be my only precautions.

This is why there is so much angst about them ...

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I do not want to distract from the massive benefits that a boat can get from Lithium batteries and personally I think the benefits outweigh the risks enough to make it a no-brainer.

The only point I would make is that it is not completely risk free and that electrical failures can happen even when the batteries themselves are not physically damaged - we have gone to great lengths in cars to mitigate against this as the consequences of such large batteries suffering from thermal events are on a much larger scale. We have adopted charge and discharge strategies, adapted the battery internal architectures and mitigated wherever possible to ensure any internal failures of cells will not result in a catastrophic fire. This costs money, time and effort.

There is a bit more info here about the mechanisms that can cause thermal runaway ... it is a thing and the construction of the batteries and the quality of the devices that charge/discharge them are essential in keeping this in check.

Battery Power Online | Thermal Runaway: Understanding the Fundamentals to Ensure Safer Batteries

 

[Poey50]

I do not want to distract from the massive benefits that a boat can get from Lithium batteries and personally I think the benefits outweigh the risks enough to make it a no-brainer.

The only point I would make is that it is not completely risk free and that electrical failures can happen even when the batteries themselves are not physically damaged - we have gone to great lengths in cars to mitigate against this as the consequences of such large batteries suffering from thermal events are on a much larger scale. We have adopted charge and discharge strategies, adapted the battery internal architectures and mitigated wherever possible to ensure any internal failures of cells will not result in a catastrophic fire. This costs money, time and effort.

There is a bit more info here about the mechanisms that can cause thermal runaway ... it is a thing and the construction of the batteries and the quality of the devices that charge/discharge them are essential in keeping this in check.

Battery Power Online | Thermal Runaway: Understanding the Fundamentals to Ensure Safer Batteries

Rod Collins of Marine How To is the closest to an expert on marine LFP builds that we have. He has long offered a cash prize for any verified photos for an LFP pack that has gone into thermal runaway. So far, it remains unclaimed.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Rod Collins of Marine How To is the closest to an expert on marine LFP builds that we have. He has long offered a cash prize for any verified photos for an LFP pack that has gone into thermal runaway. So far, it remains unclaimed.

This is the internet - without photos it never happened?

...

No boat caught on camera ..... yet.

PS: Rod Collins is only offering $50 for a very specific scenario and has this to say about himself.

2- It is the sharing of my learning, experimentation & installation/implementation of LiFePO4 batteries on boats. Contrary to what some folks think, I do not consider myself an expert on the subject of LiFePO4. If even the Chinese manufacturers, research institutions etc. don’t fully understand this technology, inside and out, how can I?

DIY LiFePO4 Batteries On Boats - Marine How To

 

[geem]

The phone involved was almost certainly a lithium polymer. I work in the car industry, having been involved in electric car design and the charging systems for them. They are no more prone to fires than diesel/petrol cars, so in my opinion I would happily use them on my boat, gas and petrol are more of a fire hazard IMO.

But your statement about requiring mechanical damage is unfortunately not true.

Plug-in electric vehicle fire incidents - Wikipedia

Fires can be induced by electrical faults in charging systems, battery manufacturing faults, and of course damage.

Everything we know about the Chevy Bolt EV fires

PS: Also done the in-house training to qualify to work on electrical vehicles and battery packs. There are numerous mechanisms built in to the system to detect and isolate faulty cells or identify thermal anomalies so this provides another layer of detection and prevention, but depending on manufacturer and system, there is always a finite possibility of a fire.

You are on the wrong rech. Phones don't use lifePO4 as the energy density of .lifePO4 isn't high enough.
Show us a video of a lifePO4 prismatic that bursts in to flames with out putting a pickaxe through it. Overcharging doesn't do it.