Moving from 1,2,Both switch to VSR

[ghostlymoron]

Anything said on here is just the writer's opinion. Some are more valid than others.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I have no issue with people fitting a VSR. It is entirely their decision. The point is I get sick and tired of people on this forum telling everybody that 1,2 both switches are wrong. Explaining the differences is fine. The VSR is wrong for me and lots of others on this forum who have been sailing for 30+ years using a 1,2 both switch quite happily. Use your VSR But dont tell us we are wrong to use an alternative manual system

I'll reply to you, but this equally applies to the other ranters in the latter part of this thread.

Firstly, you need to read what you are replying to, your post above is in reply to my comment "Leaving the switch on both is using it incorrectly. The reason so many of us don't like 1-2-B switches is because people like you don't understand how they should be used and what can go wrong when they are misused. "

I stand by that comment, using it on "Both" is incorrect.

Try reading post #27, where i took the time to draw up a quick schematic for the OP (which he has decided to go with), i also posted a schematic for separate switches. You see me telling him his switch has to go ?

How about post #24 ?

At no point have i said the switch is "wrong", even though some here clearly don't know how to use the ones they have fitted. I've certainly not said everyone must fit a VSR, i answered the OP, who specifically asked about the 1-2-B switch and his VSR, i answered his question. You came along, shouting about VSR and how they are not suitable for liveaboards. That's bollox. It certainly isn't suitable for all liveaboards, any more than any charging system is suitable for all of any type of boat or use. I fit various systems, suitable for the job in hand.

The reason a VSR is unlikely to be suitable for your particular setup is because you have deep cycle batteries charging at 14.8v, doesn't take a genious to work out that isn't going to do a FLA or SLA battery any favours. For those whos charging regime differs, VSRs work fine, even if they do liveaboard.

Note from post #42 (my highlighting)

Of course, if you have a large deep cycle bank that you charge at high voltages or regularly de-sulphate, it might be a different story. In either case, if you want to fit a system that doesn't automatically charge the engine battery, that's your choice. Doesn't mean it was essential though.

If i'm at all mistaken, you, or any one of the other ranters or people "liking" your reply to my post are welcome to point out where i have been "telling everybody that 1,2 both switches are wrong" or " tell us we are wrong to use an alternative manual system".

Nice that i'm allowed to "Explaining the differences is fine", once again i refer you to post #27. Differences clearly illustrated.

 

[PaulRainbow]

The main criticism, at least on this forum, see post #44, is that a catastrophic failure of one battery during alternator charging might bring all the batteries down to a SOC where engine starting is not possible. Paul Rainbow thinks that this could easily happen, my view is that the risk is low.

Risk of falling over the side is low, i've never done it. I wear a life jacket though.

Risk of fire is low, never had one, extinguishers are onboard though.

When was the last time you used a flare, fire blanket, Epirb, DSC mayday etc etc etc

I have personally had a battery fail in such a way that it would not hold any charge at all, luckily on separate circuits. I also had a pair of domestic batteries both fail at the same time due to shorted cells, perhaps the failure of one caused the other. If they had been in parallel with the engine battery there is more than a good chnace, make that almost certain, they would have pulled the engine battery down to a level where the engine would not start.

Motoring along, all engine in parallel, a battery fails and no battery would be capable of starting the engine. All nav equipment stays on, battery monitors look good, no no voltage alarms, all because the alternator is keeping them going. Now, turn the engine off, everything goes off, no power from the alternator. You can't start the engine, your nav gear is dead, your VHF is also dead. This looks like a significant pain the bum to me, easily solved by keeping the batteries separate at all times.

As with everything else on your boat, you are free to fit whatever you want. I don't recal ever saying that you must change your relay, i have pointed out it's possible downfalls though. I will continue to mention it anytime you tell the World about it, not because i think you need reminding, or because i'm insisting you change it, but because i'm making sure that anyone else that reads it is aware of the possible pitfalls of fitting a headlamp relay, as opposed to a superior device, whatever that device may be.

 

[geem]

I'll reply to you, but this equally applies to the other ranters in the latter part of this thread.

Firstly, you need to read what you are replying to, your post above is in reply to my comment "Leaving the switch on both is using it incorrectly. The reason so many of us don't like 1-2-B switches is because people like you don't understand how they should be used and what can go wrong when they are misused. "

I stand by that comment, using it on "Both" is incorrect.

Try reading post #27, where i took the time to draw up a quick schematic for the OP (which he has decided to go with), i also posted a schematic for separate switches. You see me telling him his switch has to go ?

How about post #24 ?

At no point have i said the switch is "wrong", even though some here clearly don't know how to use the ones they have fitted. I've certainly not said everyone must fit a VSR, i answered the OP, who specifically asked about the 1-2-B switch and his VSR, i answered his question. You came along, shouting about VSR and how they are not suitable for liveaboards. That's bollox. It certainly isn't suitable for all liveaboards, any more than any charging system is suitable for all of any type of boat or use. I fit various systems, suitable for the job in hand.

The reason a VSR is unlikely to be suitable for your particular setup is because you have deep cycle batteries charging at 14.8v, doesn't take a genious to work out that isn't going to do a FLA or SLA battery any favours. For those whos charging regime differs, VSRs work fine, even if they do liveaboard.

Note from post #42 (my highlighting)

If i'm at all mistaken, you, or any one of the other ranters or people "liking" your reply to my post are welcome to point out where i have been "telling everybody that 1,2 both switches are wrong" or " tell us we are wrong to use an alternative manual system".

Nice that i'm allowed to "Explaining the differences is fine", once again i refer you to post #27. Differences clearly illustrated.
[/QUOTE
Using the switch in both is not wrong. Its only wrong in your head. For example, an overnight passage under engine. Engine has an electric fuel pump, fridge and electronics powered from the domestic battery. Join the batteries and run everything off the alternator. Why would this be wrong? Boat has ammeters on each battery bank and voltmeters. If one battery is taking an excessive charge you can see it on the meters you have the option to isolate the faulty battery. A perfectly acceptable instance where leaving batteries on both is fine and not wrong.
Boats have hugely differing wiring arrangement. Its not one size fits all

 

[ghostlymoron]

It's a bit like driving an automatic car. Lots of people hate them (even though they haven't tried one) yet they are clearly more convenient.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Using the switch in both is not wrong. Its only wrong in your head. For example, an overnight passage under engine. Engine has an electric fuel pump, fridge and electronics powered from the domestic battery. Join the batteries and run everything off the alternator. Why would this be wrong? Boat has ammeters on each battery bank and voltmeters. If one battery is taking an excessive charge you can see it on the meters you have the option to isolate the faulty battery. A perfectly acceptable instance where leaving batteries on both is fine and not wrong.
Boats have hugely differing wiring arrangement. Its not one size fits all

Run your boat how you want, but leaving all batteries in parallel totally defeats the purpose of having separate batteries. If you want to charge all batteries and run all equipment from the alternator, a unidirectional VSR is a safer bet. Not that i expect to to agree.

 

[[176172]]

Has anyone ever done that?

Suggest you read the posts, with best will in the world I can hardly say otherwise.
The fact you needed to ask speaks volumes.
I do not give a rip for such criticisms, inaccurate assessments of use, or a looking down the nose, of how I, and seemingly many more, have conducted ourselves, with a little more than a modicum of success for quite a long time the methods employed which others find so annoying. As said before, do what suits you best and works, and leave us to do what suits us best and works...Simples.

 

[[176172]]

It's a bit like driving an automatic car. Lots of people hate them (even though they haven't tried one) yet they are clearly more convenient.

Is that an analogy of non VSR users against the enlightened elite who do and are positively sure they know best?
Rather arrogant don't you think.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Suggest you read the posts, with best will in the world I can hardly say otherwise.
The fact you needed to ask speaks volumes.
I do not give a rip for such criticisms, inaccurate assessments of use, or a looking down the nose, of how I, and seemingly many more, have conducted ourselves, with a little more than a modicum of success for quite a long time the methods employed which others find so annoying. As said before, do what suits you best and works, and leave us to do what suits us best and works...Simples.

The question raised was, has anybody ;

"telling everybody that 1,2 both switches are wrong"
and
" they deny others the choice and right to hold a different opinion,"

perhaps you could be so kind as to point out where that was said ?

As i said earlier, i posted schematics for the OP, showing the way to connect his 1-2-B switch with his VSR and the alternative method of using separate switches, giving him the choice of which to use. He chose the 1-2-B switch, do you see where i told him he was wrong, or he could not have that opinion ?

If you do, let me know where, i cannot see it.

 

[Graham376]

Anything said on here is just the writer's opinion. Some are more valid than others.

And one is so arrogant, I tend to ignore his rants.

 

[[176172]]

Run your boat how you want, but leaving all batteries in parallel totally defeats the purpose of having separate batteries. If you want to charge all batteries and run all equipment from the alternator, a unidirectional VSR is a safer bet. Not that i expect to to agree.

NO it does not, otherwise why have a 'BOTH' position which charges all batteries in the domestic bank and the starter battery.
Quite how that 'totally defeats the purpose' displays either a simple misunderstanding or an unenviable lack of understanding, particularly as the 1, 2, BOTH system is purposely designed to do just that? Repeat, 1, 2 or BOTH.
The system of course allows for separate employment and charging, as and when required, but certainly NOT exclusively as any long time user will willingly explain to any who will listen. I do hope your understanding will improve.

 

[pvb]

Run your boat how you want, but leaving all batteries in parallel totally defeats the purpose of having separate batteries. If you want to charge all batteries and run all equipment from the alternator, a unidirectional VSR is a safer bet. Not that i expect to to agree.

I'd agree with you, with the proviso that a low-loss splitter can be a better choice than a VSR, especially when more than 2 battery circuits require charging in isolation.

 

[PaulRainbow]

NO it does not, otherwise why have a 'BOTH' position which charges all batteries in the domestic bank and the starter battery.
Quite how that 'totally defeats the purpose' displays either a simple misunderstanding or an unenviable lack of understanding, particularly as the 1, 2, BOTH system is purposely designed to do just that? Repeat, 1, 2 or BOTH.
The system of course allows for separate employment and charging, as and when required, but certainly NOT exclusively as any long time user will willingly explain to any who will listen. I do hope your understanding will improve.

You are clearly so hung up on your misunderstanding of electrical systems that you are unwilling to listen to anything anyone else says. All that you need to know is contained in this thread, if you were not so stubborn to read some of it. The both setting should only be used for emergencies, whilst it is set to both you only have a single battery bank, can't you see that ?

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'd agree with you, with the proviso that a low-loss splitter can be a better choice than a VSR, especially when more than 2 battery circuits require charging in isolation.

With two banks, the VSR works fine, but you're right, if more than one bank a low loss splitter would be better.

 

[[176172]]

I'll reply to you, but this equally applies to the other ranters in the latter part of this thread.

Firstly, you need to read what you are replying to, your post above is in reply to my comment "Leaving the switch on both is using it incorrectly. The reason so many of us don't like 1-2-B switches is because people like you don't understand how they should be used and what can go wrong when they are misused. "

I stand by that comment, using it on "Both" is incorrect.

Try reading post #27, where i took the time to draw up a quick schematic for the OP (which he has decided to go with), i also posted a schematic for separate switches. You see me telling him his switch has to go ?

How about post #24 ?

At no point have i said the switch is "wrong", even though some here clearly don't know how to use the ones they have fitted. I've certainly not said everyone must fit a VSR, i answered the OP, who specifically asked about the 1-2-B switch and his VSR, i answered his question. You came along, shouting about VSR and how they are not suitable for liveaboards. That's bollox. It certainly isn't suitable for all liveaboards, any more than any charging system is suitable for all of any type of boat or use. I fit various systems, suitable for the job in hand.

The reason a VSR is unlikely to be suitable for your particular setup is because you have deep cycle batteries charging at 14.8v, doesn't take a genious to work out that isn't going to do a FLA or SLA battery any favours. For those whos charging regime differs, VSRs work fine, even if they do liveaboard.

Note from post #42 (my highlighting)

If i'm at all mistaken, you, or any one of the other ranters or people "liking" your reply to my post are welcome to point out where i have been "telling everybody that 1,2 both switches are wrong" or " tell us we are wrong to use an alternative manual system".

Nice that i'm allowed to "Explaining the differences is fine", once again i refer you to post #27. Differences clearly illustrated.

"The reason so many of us don't like 1-2-B switches is because people like you don't understand how they should be used and what can go wrong when they are misused. "

You are referring to very experienced skippers, who are fully aware of what they are doing, and have done so as I have said ad nauseum. We will not take any lectures from anyone displaying such arrogance.

 

[PaulRainbow]

"The reason so many of us don't like 1-2-B switches is because people like you don't understand how they should be used and what can go wrong when they are misused. "

You are referring to very experienced skippers, who are fully aware of what they are doing, and have done so as I have said ad nauseum. We will not take any lectures from anyone displaying such arrogance.

I stand by that comment, you don't have a clue.

 

[[70521]]

This is almost as good as an anchor thread.

I think Freedom35 needs to do some homework on PaulRainbow's background.

 

[laika]

The VSR fans seem to be mimicking the PC liberal left lobby

Blimey. Can we not keep mindless pseudo-political tribalism out of anything here these days? I'm pretty sure this *sailing* forum wasn't like this 3 years ago. The la vagabonde thread was one thing but VSRs???

I could be wrong but I suspect that there is very little correlation between VSR advocacy on this thread and number of languages in which at least one verse of the Internationale is known.

 

[[176172]]

You are clearly so hung up on your misunderstanding of electrical systems that you are unwilling to listen to anything anyone else says. All that you need to know is contained in this thread, if you were not so stubborn to read some of it. The both setting should only be used for emergencies, whilst it is set to both you only have a single battery bank, can't you see that ?
[/QUOTE

Oh dear me, you are the one misunderstanding.
BOTH is only considered an 'emergency' position if for any reason the starter battery fails and the domestic bank can be paralleled to it to start the engine. There are others but that is the one I feel sure you refer to.
As previously explained, there is nothing to prevent the BOTH being used for charging purposes, or extra power at any time it is considered necessary. For me it is not common practice to use BOTH for normal domestic usage, having over 500ampH bank.
Keeping the engine battery separate is very good practice, but for you to be so dogmatic and deaf to the experiences of those who live with and by manual operation, and ignore the straightforward explanation of what BOTH is for surprises me somewhat. I am not putting a theory forward here, but the actual pratice of many years of trouble free usage.
I would be obliged if you keep such comments as to knowledge and understanding to yourself or for the sole use of your clients you charge for such pearls of such legitimate wisdoms.

 

[pvb]

I think Freedom35 needs to do some homework on PaulRainbow's background.

He won't do that. Anyone who says "We will not take any lectures from anyone displaying such arrogance" obviously has a closed mind, not to mention breathtaking arrogance!