Move from power to sail

[Overdraught]

I have my 30' twin diesel cruiser up for sale currently and will take a summer or two out of boating. We have been thinking for some time about moving to sail and would like to get some feedback as to a good choice of boat given the following criteria. Could we assume that by the time I am ready to purchase, I will be competent/qualified at sailing.

I would like to spend some time researching hence the question at this early stage

So:

Budget - c.£50-60k
Two separate cabins, with potential to sleep 6
Decent cockpit, ideally with table - we are used to a large sociable cockpit to eat in
Easy to sail with 2 adults
Good quality (we have a Fairline currently and would like to maintain similar levels of build quality)
Likely use for weekends and the occassional week away

I'm assuming this will be c.35-40' long so an idea of running costs would be useful please.

Berthing will be more than I currently pay but then I'd only have one small engine to service, plus no real fuel bills to consider.

We are currently in Poole but would berth her in The Solent somewhere.

I have probably missed many important points here but any thoughts would be welcomed. I'm aware of the obvious differences and one of the potential issues is my children aged 7 & 9 as I've met several sailors who send their wife and children by car as the journeys take so long! Mine can get bored on a 90 journey, at 25 knots. Any other pitfalls?

Maybe some more people would actually speak to me if I were on a yacht as well!

Many thanks
Adam

 

[Tranona]

There is such a huge choice it is almost impossible to make any specific recommendations. However, one of the key decisions wil be whether you go for an older, possibly larger boat or a slightly smaller more modern boat. For example you could get a modern boat like my Bavaria 37, less than 10 years old or a mid 80s Moody 37 or similar Westerly all under 60k. Advantages of the older boats are that they are heavier and perceived higher quality. There are also more centre cockpit boats which some families prefer. Disadvantages are they will almost certainly require more maintenance and replacements. More modern boats are lighter in both senses, arguably easier to sail and more up to date style wise. Equipment will be more modern and major replacements (such as engine) less likely. Many have in mast furling which is useful for short handed sailing.

Suggest you look at lots of boats and to get the family hooked on sail take them on a charter holiday somewhere nice and warm such as Greece or Turkey. This will also give you a good introduction to modern style boats.

As to running costs, berthing is predictable once you decide where you are going, as is insurance. Basic maintenance also varies little, but overall maintenance is very much a function of condition when you bought and your penchant for new goodies

 

[Skysail]

To answer the other part of your question, you should have no problem being competent in sailing within a year. Somewhere like Rockley Point in Poole, or a local sailing club, can provide basic training. You will learn faster in a dinghy, single handed, or a two handed boat like a Wayfarer. Then perhaps a Day Skipper course or a flotilla holiday which provides tuition. Once on a yacht the principles are the same but it all happens a lot slower. And you will already be competent at the motoring stuff, and the navigation.
.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

Wouldnt even advise asking the question at this stage since you have no frame of reference against which to judge the answers. There's more than a difference in speed and fuel costs between yachts and mobos - there's something of a culture difference like there is between bikers and car drivers. It's a sweeping generalisation I know, but most sailors sail for the pleasure of sailing rather than as an exercise in travelling to a destination so the slower speed is an advantage meaning more fun time. I'm not a mobo man myself but my impression of mobo drivers is that their prime interest is ( fishermen and divers apart) using the mobo as a water born caravan and its the destination that matters.

What I'm trying to get at and explaining badly is that you need to get some sailing experience under your belt to decide first of all whether or not its for you. If it is you may well find that issues like berths and cockpit size rapidlyy become less important than issues like keel type, rig type, displacement etc. At the moment your list of wants is a mobo mans list

Please dont take this wrongly - I'm trying to be helpful. But sailing boats are all about sailing performance

 

[Overdraught]

OK, point taken but there are certain basic questions that I'm trying to get a handle on. Sailing performance is not something that I have greatly considered and there is no point me having a top performing yacht that is not comfortable for my family.

I'm well aware of the cultural differences and have always had interest in both camps. I have always considered sailing to be about the journey as much as what you do when you get there, so I'm on the right page there.

All I'm after really is a few suggestions of good all-rounders for the budget, I can then spend time researching the relative performance merits etc, much as one does when buying a mobo, car, house etc

Sailing may not be for us hence taking a couple of years out to spend some time to try and figure this out.

 

[Iota]

A bit of basic training then a couple of flotilla holidays somewhere warm will inform your decision better.

The list of boats you could look at is endless...

Jeanneau SO 35
Moody 336
Moody 35
Beneteau ?
Bavarias
etc

 

[Lee_Shaw]

OK, point taken but there are certain basic questions that I'm trying to get a handle on. Sailing performance is not something that I have greatly considered and there is no point me having a top performing yacht that is not comfortable for my family.

I'm well aware of the cultural differences and have always had interest in both camps. I have always considered sailing to be about the journey as much as what you do when you get there, so I'm on the right page there.

All I'm after really is a few suggestions of good all-rounders for the budget, I can then spend time researching the relative performance merits etc, much as one does when buying a mobo, car, house etc

Sailing may not be for us hence taking a couple of years out to spend some time to try and figure this out.

I'd go for the smallest easily resellable sloop or cutter that you think you could live with, the more desirable within sailing circles the better. Good Vancouver 32's don't stay on the market long, nor do any well looked after solid cruising boats with an appreciable hull such as Tradewind 35's, Rustler 36's etc. A lovely Giles 38 sold recently very quickly, absolutely mouth watering she was. A boat that you can practice sailing on, and lash a few quid on increasing managability and spec, and that will also nurse you, with a sought after hull form (long keel/bowthruster or fin and skeg) will repay you when she sells quickly should you decide to change. That's what you should be looking for, but join the queue.

 

[David_Jersey]

There is such a huge choice it is almost impossible to make any specific recommendations. However, one of the key decisions wil be whether you go for an older, possibly larger boat or a slightly smaller more modern boat. For example you could get a modern boat like my Bavaria 37, less than 10 years old or a mid 80s Moody 37 or similar Westerly all under 60k. Advantages of the older boats are that they are heavier and perceived higher quality. There are also more centre cockpit boats which some families prefer. Disadvantages are they will almost certainly require more maintenance and replacements. More modern boats are lighter in both senses, arguably easier to sail and more up to date style wise. Equipment will be more modern and major replacements (such as engine) less likely. Many have in mast furling which is useful for short handed sailing.

Suggest you look at lots of boats and to get the family hooked on sail take them on a charter holiday somewhere nice and warm such as Greece or Turkey. This will also give you a good introduction to modern style boats.

As to running costs, berthing is predictable once you decide where you are going, as is insurance. Basic maintenance also varies little, but overall maintenance is very much a function of condition when you bought and your penchant for new goodies

Not a great deal to add to that Save to say the requirements described are pretty much the reason why Bavaria / Beneteau etc have sold a squillion of their boats - and I mean that in a good way

 

[Tranona]

May well be the boats that you would like to own, but it is difficult to imagine a more inappropriate selection to meet the OPs needs!

Imagine trying to convince SWBO and children (used to Fairline 30 footer) that they are going to spend their next few years weekends and holidays on a Vancouver 32 rather than the nice Bavaria 36 next door! Don't think your assurance that it will survive a force 9 around Cape Horn will cut much ice! In fact guaranteed to put them off for life.

If the boats you describe are so sought after, why were they only built in penny numbers and with the possible exception of the Rustler no longer built? They are only "sought after" on the second hand market because there are insufficient around to satisfy the tiny demand and uneconomic to build new. This does not mean they are suitable boats for family holidaying based in a South Coast marina.

 

[Lee_Shaw]

May well be the boats that you would like to own, but it is difficult to imagine a more inappropriate selection to meet the OPs needs!

Imagine trying to convince SWBO and children (used to Fairline 30 footer) that they are going to spend their next few years weekends and holidays on a Vancouver 32 rather than the nice Bavaria 36 next door! Don't think your assurance that it will survive a force 9 around Cape Horn will cut much ice! In fact guaranteed to put them off for life.

If the boats you describe are so sought after, why were they only built in penny numbers and with the possible exception of the Rustler no longer built? They are only "sought after" on the second hand market because there are insufficient around to satisfy the tiny demand and uneconomic to build new. This does not mean they are suitable boats for family holidaying based in a South Coast marina.

It meets the prospective owners requirement to be an easily resellable, safe, first sailing boat of good quality. Bavaria's, as you chose that marque, are sold on price alone, doesn't matter what you do to them, how much you spend, there will always be 30-40 others for sale for a grand less. All the hull forms I mention, which are specifically well looked after, sell like hot cakes when they become available for a reason, they are GREAT boats, the fact that caravanners don't like them makes them even more sought after in good condition, because they become rarer every year because it isn't financially viable to build boats of that quality and sell them for 60k (the budget).

The Tradewind is still built, and they are highly sought after secondhand within the OP budget, for a reason, because they make a Bavaria look stupid.

 

[photodog]

Lots of good value 34-37 foot cruisers available at that money... I would suggest a couple of things...

1) Try to avoid anything more than 10 years old.....
2) condition is crucial.... look for a one owner family boat that has a good history and odviously well loved.
3) Avoid like the plague anthing that will put your swmbo and kids off... so..... you want a boat that is real easy around the marina... avoid a long keel.... nice big three cabins.... nice big heads.... comfy is good...
4) Try to pic something which sails well.... quick and fun is good..... With a family crew get a regular main.... everyone has something to do then to keep them entertained.... look for something deep keel with full battens...
5) Dont get too big a boat.... see point 3....
6) Any of the big three Jen/Ben/Bav will give the quality you want... plus Hanse aswell...

I would suggest a few boats to start things off....

1) 2002-2004 Bavaria 36 in a 3 cabin deep keel configuration.
2) Hanse 341
3) 1999-2001 Bavaria 34 in 3 cabin deep keel config.
4) Jeanneau 1999 or so 36.2


A bit more money and shopping might stretch to a Dufour 36 classic... of say 2002 or so vintage....

The Bavaria 36 and Hanse 341 will be the most entertaining from the above list...

Make sure you budget for some gear as well...Figure new liferaft and Dinghy... Maybe some electronics.

I figure the biggies to try to get on the boat are Radar, heating and Cruising chute.

Figure 10% of the purchase price in bits.....

There are some great deals kicking around right now..... if you are prepared to go a little older there is a stonking 1993 Bavaria 350 in Plymouth... and just on the market a Hanse 331 as well.... both around 43k....

 

[photodog]

Lots of good value 34-37 foot cruisers available at that money... I would suggest a couple of things...

1) Try to avoid anything more than 10 years old.....
2) condition is crucial.... look for a one owner family boat that has a good history and odviously well loved.
3) Avoid like the plague anthing that will put your swmbo and kids off... so..... you want a boat that is real easy around the marina... avoid a long keel.... nice big three cabins.... nice big heads.... comfy is good...
4) Try to pic something which sails well.... quick and fun is good..... With a family crew get a regular main.... everyone has something to do then to keep them entertained.... look for something deep keel with full battens...
5) Dont get too big a boat.... see point 3....
6) Any of the big three Jen/Ben/Bav will give the quality you want... plus Hanse aswell...

I would suggest a few boats to start things off....

1) 2002-2004 Bavaria 36 in a 3 cabin deep keel configuration.
2) Hanse 341
3) 1999-2001 Bavaria 34 in 3 cabin deep keel config.
4) Jeanneau 1999 or so 36.2


A bit more money and shopping might stretch to a Dufour 36 classic... of say 2002 or so vintage....

The Bavaria 36 and Hanse 341 will be the most entertaining from the above list...

Make sure you budget for some gear as well...Figure new liferaft and Dinghy... Maybe some electronics.

I figure the biggies to try to get on the boat are Radar, heating and Cruising chute.

Figure 10% of the purchase price in bits.....

There are some great deals kicking around right now..... if you are prepared to go a little older there is a stonking 1993 Bavaria 350 in Plymouth... and just on the market a Hanse 331 as well.... both around 43k....

 

[Lee_Shaw]

Lots of good value 34-37 foot cruisers available at that money... I would suggest a couple of things...

1) Try to avoid anything more than 10 years old.....
2) condition is crucial.... look for a one owner family boat that has a good history and odviously well loved.
3) Avoid like the plague anthing that will put your swmbo and kids off... so..... you want a boat that is real easy around the marina... avoid a long keel.... nice big three cabins.... nice big heads.... comfy is good...
4) Try to pic something which sails well.... quick and fun is good..... With a family crew get a regular main.... everyone has something to do then to keep them entertained.... look for something deep keel with full battens...
5) Dont get too big a boat.... see point 3....
6) Any of the big three Jen/Ben/Bav will give the quality you want... plus Hanse aswell...

I would suggest a few boats to start things off....

1) 2002-2004 Bavaria 36 in a 3 cabin deep keel configuration.
2) Hanse 341
3) 1999-2001 Bavaria 34 in 3 cabin deep keel config.
4) Jeanneau 1999 or so 36.2


A bit more money and shopping might stretch to a Dufour 36 classic... of say 2002 or so vintage....

The Bavaria 36 and Hanse 341 will be the most entertaining from the above list...

Make sure you budget for some gear as well...Figure new liferaft and Dinghy... Maybe some electronics.

I figure the biggies to try to get on the boat are Radar, heating and Cruising chute.

Figure 10% of the purchase price in bits.....

There are some great deals kicking around right now..... if you are prepared to go a little older there is a stonking 1993 Bavaria 350 in Plymouth... and just on the market a Hanse 331 as well.... both around 43k....

Hmmm. I'm not so sure about going from a Fairline to a Bavaria or a Hanse. Sounds like disappointment with a bolt on keel to me. Fairline's are pretty yummy boats, better than those two.

 

[sighmoon]

If this thread shows anything, it shows that boat choice is very individual.

Perhaps unlike power boats, sailing boats are always a compromise. If you want a boat that sails well in a force 9 gale, you won't go well in light airs. If you want a lot of accommodation then sailing ability, particularly into wind or chop, will suffer.

 

[photodog]

"I'm not so sure about going from a Fairline to a Bavaria or a Hanse. Sounds like disappointment with a bolt on keel to me"

Funny... we went from a Fairline (36 Sedan) (via a Sealine) to a Bavaria!!

I am sure the OP would like a HR or Najad or Rustler, but the only way he is gonna get one at his price is if one drops off the back of a lorry into his front garden....

I think the OP needs a good middle of the road 36 foot modern family cruiser with a bit of preformance.... Making that move from power it is easy to put off swmbo and the kids with some MAB or something that will get dad shouting and everyone stressed.....comfortable space, something that wont break down, and something nice and shiny.... are probably gonna go down well... as welll as something that goes backwards easily.

 

[Pete7]

To answer the other part of your question, you should have no problem being competent in sailing within a year. Somewhere like Rockley Point in Poole, or a local sailing club, can provide basic training. Then perhaps a Day Skipper course or a flotilla holiday which provides tuition. .

I think the OP needs a good middle of the road 36 foot modern family cruiser with a bit of preformance.... Making that move from power it is easy to put off swmbo and the kids with some MAB or something that will get dad shouting and everyone stressed.....

Quite like Skysails and Photodogs advice, ignore the boat thats not important at the moment, winning the hearts and minds of the family is or you will end up with a 22 footer and sailing solo. So how about a nice out of season holiday in Greece this year or sailing with a flotila in company. Pleasantly warm but not too hot, gentle upright sailing. Lots of sun bathing and swimming and staff to help if you need it. This is one of the many companies:

http://www.neilson.co.uk/yacht.aspx

Back to the boat, Premier at Swanwick and Hamble Point boat yards will be having second hand boat shows in a couple of weeks time. Good opportunity to see lots of boats in one location and with the walkways easy for the Mrs to get on and off without needing to scramble up and down ladders.

We moved across to sailing 2 years ago and bought a Moody 31 at the boatshow, bit to small for you but it is only for the Mrs and me, we are hoping the kids will leave home shortly . I have sailed but the Mrs hadn't. Keeping the boat upright and sailing in nice conditions has won her round to the point she will now do a channel crossing at night time to get the the Channel Islands for a holiday.


Pete

 

[PeterGibbs]

It's down to the Southampton BS for you, Sir!

See the latest airy and capacious designs to suit your conversion, and work back down the chain of pre-used boats to what your budget will permit. You will not find what you describe in less than about 32 ft, and beyond 40 ft you will encounter handling (especially close quarters) limitations.

You may be distracted (briefly) by such nice names as Malo and Halberg Rassey, but the price premium is something to behold! Beyond the limits you mention, for sure.

I strongly advise against a boat with lots of toys - bow thrusters etc - as you may have been accustomed to. They are a cost, a distraction, and a liability! On a pre-used boat you can count all instruments as likely to fail shortly, so allow for replacement of the essentials.

Colleagues here will give you lots of teccy advice - all well, but your final decision will be based on "feel" as you probabaly know, with some teccy underpinning.

Should you end up with a Bavaria, you will join the exulted group that knows it has the finest and most reliable vessel, whatever the long keel sandled infidels may scream at you!

Otherwise, you're making a good move and will be the happier for a stick and handkerchiefs, maybe even mellower - if that were possible! And I will definitely at least wave to you on the water.....

Good luck!

PWG

 

[Overdraught]

Thanks to everyone for your comments. The boat show seems a good plan with some used shows to get a feel of what is available in budget. The more mainstream suggestions (Bav/Jean/Ben) were the most obvious choices and I suppose the ones I have seen most of. As someone mentions, I wouldn't want a boat older than my current one, so under 10 years old is important. Quality is also important.

34-37 feet seems about right but the key thing is to go try flotilla holidays to see if we like it, albeit in ideal conditions.

Got to sell the current one first though......

Thanks again
Adam

 

[David_Jersey]

34-37 feet seems about right but the key thing is to go try flotilla holidays to see if we like it, albeit in ideal conditions.

Good move on the flotilla holiday idea, not so much for the learning to sail stuff (useful though that will be) - but to gently ease the family into the sailing thing. Warm weather is an even bigger plus when travelling slowly

On a general note, a (genuinely!) well maintained boat from a widely known make (whether built in large or small numbers) will always have a market. If I was buying a boat with a view to selling in a few years I would be looking at a 6-10 year old Bavaria / Beneteaus etc, much the same as the Fairline / Sealine boats and Fords / BMWs........

 

[Jeannius]

AdamHarley... Have you considered a catamaran? If you are coming from the space and comfort of powerboats your family may well be seriously unhappy with a monohull. You won't know that until they try it but be prepared. For your £50-60k you would would be looking at quite an old cat but you'd get the space you are used to and the family might be happier.