Aardee
Well-Known Member
I agree with Rotax, there has to be a solution using the existing toerail. I'm sure you used to be able to buy toerail-mounted cleats with the foot at 90 degrees to the cleat.
Mounting New Cleats - hollow space!
- Thread starter Perplexed
- Start date
Tintin
Well-Known Member
Question: why a mid cleat? This isn't as daft a question as it may seem.
If its for mid lines for berthing then you really need a strong back. But this is a 23ft boat, so you can do all the lines you need from the fore and aft cleats.
If it's for easier coming alongside, perhaps solo, and is temporary while you rig your mooring lines from the fore and aft cleats, then you have a strong point amidships - the shroud base.
Personally I'd use that. It will save a lot of faff. A lot of bigger yachts do similar. I have done many times.
If its for mid lines for berthing then you really need a strong back. But this is a 23ft boat, so you can do all the lines you need from the fore and aft cleats.
If it's for easier coming alongside, perhaps solo, and is temporary while you rig your mooring lines from the fore and aft cleats, then you have a strong point amidships - the shroud base.
Personally I'd use that. It will save a lot of faff. A lot of bigger yachts do similar. I have done many times.
Tintin
Well-Known Member
Am not sure the 23 has a toe rail from a quick look via google images
lw395
Well-Known Member
I didn't think there was a proper toe-rail, if there is, then I'd use it to mount a cleat on a block.
As the comrade says, you can use other things to moor. For coming alongside shorthanded, we find a short line tied to the spinnaker guy pad eye, around the shore cleat and back to the sheet winch is easy to use from the helm's position.
As the comrade says, you can use other things to moor. For coming alongside shorthanded, we find a short line tied to the spinnaker guy pad eye, around the shore cleat and back to the sheet winch is easy to use from the helm's position.
James_Calvert
Well-Known Member
From pics it looks like there's a tubular toe level rail mounted along each side, ideal for a temporary lashup. Just not as easy to use one handed as a cleat?
Stemar
Well-Known Member
I attach my "get it ashore quick" line to a stanchion base near the middle of the boat. It's always worked and the stanchion is plenty strong enough to motor against when being blown off. Once that line's round a cleat on shore, I put my breast lines on and springs from the bow & stern. I did consider fitting mid cleats, but there's a GRP liner inside and I didn't want to damage it.
It doesn't sound ideal, and I've wondered about it, but the stress is horizontal, so the mounting bolts are a lot less stressed than if I were to fall against the top guard wire. I've been doing it for 17 years now, including a few hairy moments, so I guess it's OK. This on a fairly heavy 24 footer. It would probably be another matter on a modern 40 foot flyer, but the Etap 23 is a lot lighter.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
On my Moody 31, the main use for the centre cleat (which bolts to an aluminium toe-rail) is to take a spring for use when berthing; we pick up a spring as the bow comes alongside the pontoon, drop the eye over the cleat, and then we know that a) the boat will be stopped before the bow hits the main pontoon (!) and b) that I can motor against the spring to keep her parallel to the pontoon while other lines are fixed.
The point is that the cleat has to take quite large forces, and I wouldn't be happy with most of the proposed ways to attach the cleat - none seem to be connecting to a structural part of the boat.
However, I have seen a small Sadler simply use the sheet winches for the same trick, and wonder if using the sheet winches would be sufficient for the OP's boat?
The point is that the cleat has to take quite large forces, and I wouldn't be happy with most of the proposed ways to attach the cleat - none seem to be connecting to a structural part of the boat.
However, I have seen a small Sadler simply use the sheet winches for the same trick, and wonder if using the sheet winches would be sufficient for the OP's boat?
Stemar
Well-Known Member
In principle, I agree, but there's a world of difference in the forces needed to tame a Moody 31 when she has a strop and those needed to keep an Etap 23 in order. When my Snapdragon - a foot longer an significantly heavier than the Elan gets out of order, I can tug on a line and she shapes up; I imagine your boat is like a friend's bigjob - tug on a line and it laughs and tugs right back
lw395
Well-Known Member
Even using it for a spring to motor against, what's the bollard pull for the motor on an Etap 23? 100kg tops?
It's snatch loads that do damage to cleats and the structure they're bolted to.
It's snatch loads that do damage to cleats and the structure they're bolted to.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Well, yes - I use about a 14mm line, and it definitely creaks a bit when it takes the strain, even at very low speeds - I usually approach the pontoon with bare steerage way! Capricious displaces 4.5 tonnes when light; goodness knows what it is now! You certainly couldn't stop her by hand; you can do it by snubbing a line round the midships cleat (the usual trick when approaching a foreign pontoon).
However, a cleat that looks like it will take mooring loads might well be used by A.N. Other when berthing alongside, so it might be as well to be prepared for higher loads.
James_Calvert
Well-Known Member
That sounds like an equally good argument for not having a cleat there at all.
If it's not there it can't be abused.
On the topic of abuse, people really shouldn't be encouraged to use the shrouds for springs. OK for your dinghy maybe. But they are designed for vertical loads not horizontal ones. Likewise their sealant system...
Daverw
Well-Known Member
We use our midcleat always when locking in and out, bow cleat pulls it too far in. Mid and stern cleat hold perfect
doug748
Well-Known Member
One way around it is to fit cleats, or extra turning blocks, on your genoa track:
Barton Marine - Products - Special cleats
or
Barton Marine - Products - Genoa cars and sliders for 25mm track
Which is a shame if you have already bought your cleats, plus the track is not ideal on an Etap 23 either. However it might be worth a thought.
.
Perplexed
New Member
Wow! I did not think my question would generate so much discussion!! Thank you everyone for giving me advice.
I did look at using the toe rail, but it is only a light aluminium tube - no great substance to it, so I am not sure how much load I would like to trust it with. The problem I have is that there are just two cleats up for'ard, and only one at the stern --- and the boat is quite beamy.
My idea was to put another cleat amidships to help with holding her when I come alongside on my own - which is quite normal. I thought I might use it for springs too when moored, for often springs laid fore or aft do not lie well because of the beaminess of the boat. Something amidships would tidy that problem up.
Please don't get me wrong - I love my Etap, she is a good boat, but as with each of the boats I have had she has her difficulties.
So....a Big Thank You to everyone who took time respond to my question It so much appreciated, and I will certainly come back when perlexed again!
Keep safe, everybody. We might be allowed onto the water soon! Not much of a season this year, butI hope you can make the most of it.
John
I did look at using the toe rail, but it is only a light aluminium tube - no great substance to it, so I am not sure how much load I would like to trust it with. The problem I have is that there are just two cleats up for'ard, and only one at the stern --- and the boat is quite beamy.
My idea was to put another cleat amidships to help with holding her when I come alongside on my own - which is quite normal. I thought I might use it for springs too when moored, for often springs laid fore or aft do not lie well because of the beaminess of the boat. Something amidships would tidy that problem up.
Please don't get me wrong - I love my Etap, she is a good boat, but as with each of the boats I have had she has her difficulties.
So....a Big Thank You to everyone who took time respond to my question It so much appreciated, and I will certainly come back when perlexed again!
Keep safe, everybody. We might be allowed onto the water soon! Not much of a season this year, butI hope you can make the most of it.
John
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