Motor Sailers, Pros and Cons Please.

[Alistairr]

Whats the advantages of buying a MotorSailer over a Sailing Boat??

Is it a wise purchase for a Novice Sailor?? And is it possible on a Budget of £20k.

All advice is much Appreciated.

Alistairr.

 

[jimboaw]

Re: Motor Sailers, Pros & Cons Please.

We adored our Fjord 33MS and would have kept her under other circumstances. It would seem to me that the concept has taken a much stronger hold in recent years with the advent of designs that call themselves Deck Saloons. These tend to be built onto existing sail boat hulls so performance under sail is generaly good when compared to the Colvics, Fishers and Nauticats of the 70s. Engine power has also increased as designers have been able to take advantage of weight reductions for a given HP. Advantages are obvious, Get home on time if you miss the tide. Dual station steering in most keeps you out of the weather.
Disadvantages? none with the modern ones but 20k won't buy one, you need to add another 0

 

[snowleopard]

Re: Motor Sailers, Pros & Cons Please.

there are two definitions of motor sailer-

a boat that sails and has a motor (larger than an auxiliary). this includes some fairly lively light-displacement boats, often regarded more as sailing boats with big auxiliaries.

you are probably referring to a heavy displacement long-keel boat with small sail area, large engine and enclosed wheelhouse. this is the narrower conventional view. the benefits are all-weather boating without waterproofs, the ability to get home on time even with a headwind. the downside is that, particularly in the smaller sizes, the sailing performance is limited so you'll motor-sail a lot and probably not bother with sails to windward. The wheelhouse restricts the cockpit space (if any) so you'll be indoors to steer, even on a beautiful day.

 

[Talbot]

Re: Motor Sailers, Pros & Cons Please.

From what I have been able to research, the priveledge class of cat is really a motor sailer, as it is over weight (solidly built). certainly opens up your options for a spacious boat, but doubt you would find one for £20k!!!!!!

 

[Alistairr]

Ok, So to be a Sailer it needs to be modern and light, with a descent engine to make ot a motor sailer.

I've only ever seen the Nauticats, Colvics and Fisher boats, What other makes are there??

I've also been to look at this, tis local in Largs Marina.
Fisher 25
Fisher as a make i'm told are solid and very well built, But is it maybe too solid, Are these older boat far too over weight??

Is it asking for trouble taking on a boat as old as the 70's???

 

[snowleopard]

as talbot says, there are cats that could fairly be described as motor sailers, including my own. trouble is that for £20k you would be a long way short. you'd be lucky to get a privilege for 10 times that.

the hunter pilot 27 is a motor sailer but they haven't been around long enough for the price to have got down to 20k.

if you can get hold of a stack of back issues, YM did an A-Z review of the commonest secondhand boats a year or so back.

 

[PeteCooper]

It depends on the definition of motor sailer. Modern yachts have significantly better, more powerful, engines than older yachts. For example when a Halcyon 27 was new in 1969, a 6 to 8 horsepower engine was considered adequate. In the 80s, a Moody 27 had an 18 hp engine, and that is more in line with modern power units. If you buy a realitively modern yacht with a decent engine it will sail well, and motor well. Incidently, the Fisher 25 that you mention does not sail at all well.

 

[graham]

With 20k you could buy a Westerly Berwick /Reknown .They are strong 31 foot boats that sail quite well but also have fairly large engines .Loads of room and were built in different options eg twin or fin keel, aft or center cockpit,sloop or ketch. Personally I would prefer this to a pure motor sailer that can barely sail to windward in some cases.

 

[LadyInBed]

As Jimboaw says the modern term is ‘deck saloon’. You can also describe a M/S as having an interior steering position but these days with decent autohelms and remote controls, an interior steering position doesn’t necessarily mean a wheel.
I class my Pilot House Colvic Countess 33cc as a M/S as I can sit inside and have all round visibility. I classed my last boat a 22ft Swin Ranger with a 7.5hp Yanmar as a M/S as well as it also had an internal wheel.

I have come to believe that it is more a state of mind, if you easily get fed up beating to wind and making 1 to 2 knots, so put the engine on to assist or give up sailing altogether and motor into wind, you are a motor - sailer, if you won't use the engine even though you are only making 1 to 2 knots on a 70nM passage, you aint - I is!

 

[claymore]

Re: Motor Sailers, Pros & Cons Please.

Thats a pretty good description. Certainly the Fisher 25 means being indoors on good days and they roll for fun. Very solid little boat for all that. The extra advantages of Motor Sailors are really that they are kind to you on horrible days. Claymores have a semi enclosed wheelhouse so you can get the best of both worlds as do LM's. As others have said, £20k won't be enough and another 10 will be nearer the mark. See if you can find a Mascot 28, they are pretty, have a semi enclosed wheelhouse and seem to sail ok
Motorsailors don't go well upwind - ours is fine in light airs but its morotsailing in anything of a breeze. Off the wind they are fine and sail well.

 

[Evadne]

I've always looked on a motorsailer as the boat I'll get when I'm too old to sail a conventional sailboat. They have more shelter, smaller sails and a bigger engine. Unless you're an old novice I'd get a sailing boat first. They all have big enough engines (well, nearly all), they are all cheaper than either a mobo or a motorsailer and they nearly all sail better.
Having said that, we're not yet in the water and currently parked next to an LM27, which looks about three times the size of our Elizabethan 29, and comes in at three times the cost (two at £31k-£36k in the brokerage columns this month). It looks like a slightly portly, shoal draught sailing boat with a wheelhouse. I would think she also has a great big engine, and my experience is that engines cost money to keep and run, and that cost is proportional to their size.
For your first boat you should be thinking (a) will I be able to sell it if I don't like it and (b) keep the running costs down. (Unless you see something unusual and fall in love, but that's another story).

 

[smee]

The advantages of Motorsailers are they generally are slower steadier boats with the advantage of a big engine to get you out of trouble. Some sail appallingly while a few can be surprisingly nippy. THey are more likely to be forgiving for a novice for sailing, though if you choose a long keel one you may find they have the disadvantage of being difficult to manoevre under power.

In my opinion a motorsailer is defined by having a larger than average engine for the size of boat (for instance 30ft/35hp or 41ft/120hp), and was designed with a fixed windscreen, which can vary from just that to a whole deck saloon/wheelhouse with windscreen wipers. Westerly Berwick for instance is therefore just a sailing boat with a largish engine even if someone has added a glass windscreen! Also a Halcyon 27 cannot ever be described as a motorsailer as it was designed as an auxiliary yacht and a 6hp or 9hp on that weight of boat would rather be considered under-powered these days!

Motorsailers are available in any keel not just Long and they can be saildrive, outboard, or inboard with shafts.

Motorsailers are (to name but a few!): Colvic Watson (several), Fisher (several), Nauticat (several), Winga 78 & 87, Steadfast 30 & 24, Master 30, Dartsailer 28, LM (several), Mascot (several), Seadog, Fjord 28 & 33, Goldfish/Viksund, Newbridge Pioneer Pilot, Colvic/Atlanta 31, Roamer, Rogger, Coaster 33, Neptunian, Cox 27, Moody Eclipse, Marcon Claymore, Jouet 940, Hunter Horizon 32, Hunter Pilot 27, Salar 40, Scanyacht 290, Swinn Ranger, Voyager 40, Westerly Konsort Duo, Hurley 9.5, Finnsailer (several), Finnclipper, Banjer 36, Kent, Hardy 20, Profile 40, Husky, Fairey Fisherman, Barbary......

In the £20k budget you will be limited greatly to probably only Newbridge Pilot Pilot, Steadfast 24, Fisher Freeward, Seadog, a Colvic Watson under 30ft, possibly a Finnsailer 29, certainly it will be something 20-30years old. The majority of Motorsailers are over £30k sad to say!

 

[trouville]

If he can buy a fisher 25 for £20,000 then why not? ive no idea at all about prices but if you like the fisher they really are well built!so if that the price and a good one why not!

Super solid reliable and go on for ever, Not much room though!I know people that have the bigger "fishers" and they are very comfortable. I suspect MS are in fashion! My Hillyard has become valuable!!

Why not look for a 9 ton Hillyard in need of a bit of work,They are realy wonderful really,I would change mine for one if my family would stop objecting! and if the port would give us a smaller place(other wise the smaller boat pays the bigger price!!)

Ive seen 9 tonners for all sorts of prices but realisticaly from 18 to 30K£!!!
they never used to cost so much!! but for £20,000 you will find a nice one that just need some TLC!! And they are realy gooooood motor sailers, a proper ship!
not just see through plastic.Ummm you cant see through a fisher i think the palstic about 2inches thick!!

I just saw the last post mentiond a seadog or deepseadog! perhaps as well for £20000? if so they are even better than the westerlies which look a bit odd! but have room as the Elizabethan 29 also both very interesting boats. But a seadog good boat good looking as well, almost as desirable as a Hillyard!!!

You must think that the seadog and hillyard sail very well!And the sea dog hull was molded not with chopped matt but woven matt!! that meens far far less risk of osmose! very good hulls! even though there plastic!!

the westerly and Elizabethan 29 also sail well and motor well but you will get wet when its raining and sunburnt when sunny which you wont on a Hillyard!!And your not stuck in a stuffy closed cabin either! really well thought out ship.

 

[Alistairr]

Thanks to all that replied, very useful.

Thanks for the very informative replies, There certainly seems to be more MS out there than i expected!!!

A few of the name that have been mentioned i've started to look up, Westerly, Seadog, Elizabethan, Hillyard, and a few others. I have spent quite a lot of time on a Colvic Watson over the past few seasons, this one was a home build by my friend and it is well turned out. The Fisher seems to have the reputation of being a well built boat, but heavy, and a few people have said they are dogs to sail.
We've also been to look at a Finnsailer at Troon, It was a big boat and quite nice, although accomadation was quite limited.
We do currently have a Mobo, and thought that MS would be the sencible transition for us.
We are likely to continue sailing on Loch Lomond for the forseeable future before moving into the clyde hopefully.
We have looked at several yachts too, but feel the constant rain we experience in Scotland, warrants something with a Hard top, to shelter us while we sail, current the open top Mobo, often stays tied up, while its wet!!!

Again thanks for all the help and info.

Alistair.

 

[Bergman]

I've read thisthread with interest, tentatively looking for a ragpot myself simply cos SWMBO is fed up with getting cold and wet while I do detailed and complex navigational work at the chart table.

But I would add a word of caution.

I am looking after years of sailing, you are looking to move from a motor boat.

I sort of feel you may benefit from trying a proper saily boat first. Trouble is that there isnt really a half way house thing with this. You either motor or sail and the ragpot typically does neither particularly well.

I'm happy with this for the benefit of being warm and dry (and not suffering SWMBO induced earache)

But I can imagine you may find the experience frustrating, slow and dreary compared with motory thing and lacking the thrill of running lee rail under to windward with flung spray and blown spume sort of thing on a proper boat

Not trying to put you off - just a thought

 

[trouville]

Just one comment more. Something that irritates me with a dog house or what ever is that when the salt sea water hits the windscreen it dries whith the heat and wind and the wipper only smears a greasy film back and forth, so when sailing into the sun in the afternoon its hard to see where im going even though i spray lots of soapy water on the screen.

The alternative is to have an unobstructed veiw over the coach roof and duck as you hit the next wave! I never got the hang of that and normaly put my head up just in time to get the full spray!!

Is nice to have the roof there on a rainy day and the comfortable engin to motor through the calm oily swell!! Makes you wonder why anyone would sail a Folkboat, having to dress up in wet weather gear and stand in the pouring rain???

 

[aitchw]

I've been sort of thinking about the Halmatic 28. It looks a good shape for sailing and doesn't appear to have a rigid doghouse plus it has a decent cockpit.

Anyone any thoughts?

Howard

 

[graham]

the Elizabethan 29 is a beautifull boat but absolutely NOT a motorsailer. They are fast wet and with not a lot of room inside for a 29 foot boat.

I have never sailed on one but the Seadog 30 looks like a tough and capable boat which definitely can call itself a motorsailer but will sail reasonably well if required.

 

[claymore]

Get yourself a Kemp Clearview - they are wonderful.
(They are round and spin the water away using centrifugal force)

 

[LadyInBed]

What you need is the The Good Yacht Guide (MotorSailers Book)