More vat issues, and Irish Registration

[gcrothers]

With all this Brexit uncertainty I decided to investigate as an Irish citizen living in N.Ireland getti g the boat registered under the Irish Flag. I'd heard that the Irish registration process could be bureaucratic, but other people who have successfully gone through the process said it is doable. (See Salty Lass on Facebook)
I'm currently registered with UK SSR scheme. Wish I'd never moved from Dutch flag when I purchased the boat. I'm in Carribbean at the moment so perhaps that's a bit more complicated, but it is definitely turning out to be "non trivial".
My latest correspondence from Irish Customs... Says."You are reminded that if a vessel has been outside the E.U. for a period of three years or more then VAT is payable at re-importation into E.U. territory."

Anyone know if this is a particularly Irish interpretation of an EU law, or is it common to get hit for vat after a trip round the world.

Furthermore. they go on to say "All TITLE documents and other supporting documents/forms must be submitted here in original format and will be retained by this Office. The original VAT invoice can be retained by you and a copy will suffice for our purposes."

I'm not keen on posting stuff off to Irish Revenue commissioners from the Carribbean, for them to then hold on to them as well..
Is this also a common request.

Thanks
Garry Crothers

 

[Irish Rover]

I registered a boat in Ireland in 2010 and was able to do it all remotely from Turkey. The process is quite similar to UK part 1 or Jersey part 1 which I did last year. Bear in mind you will need to get a tonnage survey carried out by an approved surveyor.
The VAT stipulation is EU wide but you can apply for re-importation if you have proof of the original VAT payment.
I've no idea where the notion of retaining original title documents comes from. Sounds daft. I'd say Customs shouldn't be your first port of call in this process. These are the relevant authority and will refer you to Customs later in the process http://www.dttas.ie/maritime/maritimesafetydirectorate/mmo

 

[macd]

My latest correspondence from Irish Customs... Says."You are reminded that if a vessel has been outside the E.U. for a period of three years or more then VAT is payable at re-importation into E.U. territory."

Anyone know if this is a particularly Irish interpretation of an EU law, or is it common to get hit for vat after a trip round the world.

UK customs has recently expressly stated that this "three year rule" does not apply to private craft. Even if it did, private vessels brought back to the EU by the owner who took them out of the EU can be exempted under returned goods relief (if no substantial modifications were made to the vessel in the meantime).

Incidentally, the UK department of HMRC which deals with returned goods relief just happens to be in Belfast, so is probably quite tuned in to cross-border issues. I'd be happy to give you their details if you wish.

Irish customs seem to be taking a different view. I'd be inclined to ask them specifically about returned goods relief.

Incidentally, flag of registration has little bearing on this. A boat's "nationality" is principally determined by the country of residence of its owner. However, this will be subject to the transitional Brexit arrangements made public a couple of months ago determining a vessels VAT status after Brexit day. Are you aware of these?

 

[gcrothers]

I am aware of the transitional arrangements, and it does worry me . Hence my investigation of an EU flag. I'm guessing most of my boats usage will be in. EU waters rather than U.K, so my preference is for an EU flag,
I'm now looking at possibly going back to Dutch reg,. Euro 299 and 3 day process, however they state that Portugal has some issues with the Dutch Registry. Not exactly sure what the problem is...
Thanks
Garru

 

[gcrothers]

I hadn't intended contacting customs, but when following the MMO website guidelines, they said initial contact for a Dublin was an xxx@revenue.ie address. Very strange system..
I know about the tonnage survey, but was interested to find out that the MMO must issue a warrant to a named surveyor from one of the big survey companies. (lloyds, DNV, YDSA)... Again .. strange that they must issue a warrant to an individual surveyor rather than accepting the membership of Lloyds or DNV ..
Thanks

 

[Graham376]

I am aware of the transitional arrangements, and it does worry me . Hence my investigation of an EU flag. I'm guessing most of my boats usage will be in. EU waters rather than U.K, so my preference is for an EU flag,
I'm now looking at possibly going back to Dutch reg,. Euro 299 and 3 day process, however they state that Portugal has some issues with the Dutch Registry. Not exactly sure what the problem is...
Thanks
Garru

From memory, the problem was that boats had been registered on an unofficial Dutch register which didn't give them rights to use Dutch ensign and travel internationally. This isn't just a Portuguese ruling.

As far as retaining EU VAT paid status for a UK vessel, all that is needed is proof that it is in EU waters on B day. I'm sure there will be a few marina receipts OCRd and names changed.

 

[macd]

I am aware of the transitional arrangements, and it does worry me . Hence my investigation of an EU flag. I'm guessing most of my boats usage will be in. EU waters rather than U.K, so my preference is for an EU flag,
I'm now looking at possibly going back to Dutch reg,. Euro 299 and 3 day process, however they state that Portugal has some issues with the Dutch Registry. Not exactly sure what the problem is...
Thanks

But an EU flag bestows no fiscal benefits, other than perhaps being less likely to invite scrutiny than a third country flag. You seem aware of the transitional VAT arrangements, so if a boat previously compliant in the EU28 is in EU27 waters on Brexit day, it will be deemed union goods whatever ensign it wears. All you'll need is the means of proving its whereabouts on B-day -- something like a marina receipt.

As Graham wrote, the issue that concerns you regarding a Dutch flag is nothing to do with the official national registry. (My memory's a bit vague on it, but the 'false' registry was something like a domestic club register which some shady customers had flogged on-line as the real McCoy. It stretches credibility just a little that a major maritime nation such as Holland would allow its official registry to become worthless. )

 

[Irish Rover]

I hadn't intended contacting customs, but when following the MMO website guidelines, they said initial contact for a Dublin was an xxx@revenue.ie address. Very strange system..
I know about the tonnage survey, but was interested to find out that the MMO must issue a warrant to a named surveyor from one of the big survey companies. (lloyds, DNV, YDSA)... Again .. strange that they must issue a warrant to an individual surveyor rather than accepting the membership of Lloyds or DNV ..
Thanks

It's 9 years since I did this so my memory may not be 100% accurate. I know I spoke to the MMO at the time and found them very helpful. My recollection is I dealt with them first to get provisional approval for my chosen vessel name. They gave me lots of useful information and advice about the whole process. At the same time I dealt with the Marine Survey Office about arranging a survey. The procedure is a bit archaic but was simple enough. I found a surveyor in Turkey who was a member of YBDSA and willing to do the work. I then contacted YBDSA and they were fully familiar with the Irish system and made the necessary arrangements. As regards Customs you have a choice of around 12 regional offices and you can choose which one you want to deal with - I choose Limerick because it's the nearest official Port to my birth place in Co Clare. I avoided Dublin because I thought it might be a bigger office and less easy to establish an actual personal contact. Whichever of the 12 you choose is the Port of Registry which will appear on your boat. I found it much easier to do as much of the contact as possible on the phone and I found all 3 - MMO, MSO and Customs - helpful and easy to deal with.
I hope this helps.

 

[pauldoody]

Re Portugal having issues with Dutch flagged boats, I think it was specifically with Portuguese residents that had registered their boats with the Dutch registry to avoid costly regulation with Portuguese registry.

 

[25931]

Re Portugal having issues with Dutch flagged boats, I think it was specifically with Portuguese residents that had registered their boats with the Dutch registry to avoid costly regulation with Portuguese registry.

As stated above it was not official Dutch registry.

 

[nortada]

Re Portugal having issues with Dutch flagged boats, I think it was specifically with Portuguese residents that had registered their boats with the Dutch registry to avoid costly regulation with Portuguese registry.

Surprised, for reasons unknown, the Portuguese do not like the Dutch so would expect them to register their boats any where but the Nederland

 

[cloud7]

Q

I registered a boat in Ireland in 2010 and was able to do it all remotely from Turkey. The process is quite similar to UK part 1 or Jersey part 1 which I did last year. Bear in mind you will need to get a tonnage survey carried out by an approved surveyor.
The VAT stipulation is EU wide but you can apply for re-importation if you have proof of the original VAT payment.
I've no idea where the notion of retaining original title documents comes from. Sounds daft. I'd say Customs shouldn't be your first port of call in this process. These are the relevant authority and will refer you to Customs later in the process http://www.dttas.ie/maritime/maritimesafetydirectorate/mmo

The simple Irish registration system ( similar to SSR ) was stopped around 2014 , the new process is now like a commercial application , there is pressure coming from Irish sailing clubs to establish a simple system in view of Brexit.
I have been trying to research this, and just hitting a brick wall, the Irish for example will not accept RYA radio licence to get an Irish MMSI number

 

[Irish Rover]

Q
The simple Irish registration system ( similar to SSR ) was stopped around 2014 , the new process is now like a commercial application , there is pressure coming from Irish sailing clubs to establish a simple system in view of Brexit.
I have been trying to research this, and just hitting a brick wall, the Irish for example will not accept RYA radio licence to get an Irish MMSI number

There never was an official "simple registration" system in Ireland. For a number of years the Irish Sailing Association were issuing a form of documentation which had no legal or official basis or approval and in 2014 they were asked by the government to stop doing so and they complied. There's been talk about a SSR type scheme for years and promises made from time to time but I'm not aware of any evidence it's any closer to becoming a reality. It would require new legislation and truthfully I can't see it being a priority. I agree the procedure for getting a radio licence in Ireland is an unfunny joke - what a pleasure it was to deal with Ofcom for my current Jersey registered boat.

 

[macd]

the Irish for example will not accept RYA radio licence to get an Irish MMSI number

Assuming that by RYA licence you mean a short-range certificate, why would they accept or even require one? MMSI applies to the vessel/station (and associated ship's licence), not the operator.

 

[kof]

and the simple (ISA) one was next to useless. Wasn't recognized outside of Ireland - I got stopped in La Trinite and fined for not having the official one ( and a ships bell, the reg number engraved on the ships cross beam..)

There never was an official "simple registration" system in Ireland. For a number of years the Irish Sailing Association were issuing a form of documentation which had no legal or official basis or approval and in 2014 they were asked by the government to stop doing so and they complied. ...

 

[cloud7]

Assuming that by RYA licence you mean a short-range certificate, why would they accept or even require one? MMSI applies to the vessel/station (and associated ship's licence), not the operator.

I know it’s a joke

 

[Irish Rover]

Assuming that by RYA licence you mean a short-range certificate, why would they accept or even require one? MMSI applies to the vessel/station (and associated ship's licence), not the operator.

As I understand it when you apply for a Ship Radio Licence you have to provide details of the radio operator and the cert he/she has along with the cert number. The same application form is used to get an MMSI for a boat that already has a radio licence. It does envisage accepting foreign certs but I don't know which ones are accepted.
It is a very unwieldy system for something that can be done in 5 minutes online with Ofcom and it's free whereas you have to pay in Ireland for the privelage of jumping through all the hoops.

 

[macd]

As I understand it when you apply for a Ship Radio Licence you have to provide details of the radio operator and the cert he/she has along with the cert number.

I've no idea what the practice is in Ireland but if you're correct, their rules are illogical and unusual (except, perhaps crucially, as they might apply to a merchant vessel). There's no requirement in the UK or anywhere else of which I'm aware for an operator's licence to be a pre-requisite for a ship's radio licence. It's perfectly legal to have a radio (and thus be required to have a ship's licence) without having an operator's licence. An offence is only committed if an unlicensed operator uses it for non-emergency purposes. The law is generally couched in such a way that an unlicensed operator may routinely use the set under the supervision of a licensed person, and who's to know whether you have one of those on board. (You might not know yourself until it happens.) Much about these regulations is derived from international treaties, to which I presume Ireland is a signatory.

Apologies if the Irish rules truly are as daft as they sound, but confusion between ship's and operator's licences is commonplace on sites such as this. My earlier post was predicated on that possibility.

 

[Irish Rover]

I've no idea what the practice is in Ireland but if you're correct, their rules are illogical and unusual (except, perhaps crucially, as they might apply to a merchant vessel). There's no requirement in the UK or anywhere else of which I'm aware for an operator's licence to be a pre-requisite for a ship's radio licence. It's perfectly legal to have a radio (and thus be required to have a ship's licence) without having an operator's licence. An offence is only committed if an unlicensed operator uses it for non-emergency purposes. The law is generally couched in such a way that an unlicensed operator may routinely use the set under the supervision of a licensed person, and who's to know whether you have one of those on board. (You might not know yourself until it happens.) Much about these regulations is derived from international treaties, to which I presume Ireland is a signatory.

Apologies if the Irish rules truly are as daft as they sound, but confusion between ship's and operator's licences is commonplace on sites such as this. My earlier post was predicated on that possibility.

Here it is for you in all it's glory the Ship Radio Licence Application Form http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/content/maritime/english/general/maritime-radio/ship-radio-licence-form-version-1-1.pdf#overlay-context=maritime/english/maritime-radio-0.
You will see it is based on the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1926. Most legislation relation to ships in Ireland derive from and still refer to the Merchant Shipping Act 1894 and very little has been done to update the legislation apart from a rewrite of basically the same regulations in the Mercantile Marine Act 1955. There's no separate legislation for private yachts or leisure craft.

 

[macd]

Thanks, Rover. Seems me suspicion about merchant vessels was correct.
Having skimmed through the form, I'm only surprised that it doesn't insist on valve sets.