longjohnsilver
Well-known member
Was drinking San Mig 30 odd years ago in HK! There's just no where near enough for more than a quick lunctime session! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Moonfleet Sailing - Cruise from Hell
- Thread starter CarolSheppard
- Start date
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Sans Bateau
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
Yachtmaster instructors have to requalify every five years and I have yet to meet one who could be described as incompetent in any respect.
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I must join Fireball with my doubts about this. In Nov 2007 I did a YM prep course, with view to taking the exam on the Friday/Sat, there was myself plus one other YM candidate on the boat, we both declined to take the exam.
When I spoke to the school, they admitted they had never sailed with the instructor and he was (as most instructors are) self employed for the week. They relied purely on his cert.
As an aside, one of the dazed kipper candidates on the boat was a chef! Result! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Yachtmaster instructors have to requalify every five years and I have yet to meet one who could be described as incompetent in any respect.
[/ QUOTE ]
I must join Fireball with my doubts about this. In Nov 2007 I did a YM prep course, with view to taking the exam on the Friday/Sat, there was myself plus one other YM candidate on the boat, we both declined to take the exam.
When I spoke to the school, they admitted they had never sailed with the instructor and he was (as most instructors are) self employed for the week. They relied purely on his cert.
As an aside, one of the dazed kipper candidates on the boat was a chef! Result! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Tranona
Well-known member
Still there. Had a couple of cans on the ferry from HK to Zhuhai just a few weeks ago.
You are right one case for a whole crew is just not good enough. They have obviously not seen German charterers provisioning their boats for a few days in the Med! Each crew member seems to need their own height of cases of beer stacked up!
You are right one case for a whole crew is just not good enough. They have obviously not seen German charterers provisioning their boats for a few days in the Med! Each crew member seems to need their own height of cases of beer stacked up!
whipper_snapper
New member
There are some bad instructors around. Some lack sailing skills, some lack people skills. Good sailing schools do not rely on certificates.
Many, many years ago a YM instructor took me through Jack Sound in zero vis with just a GPS (this was when selective availability was on, in fact GPS was only just beginning to appear on yachts). She relied on me, someone she met for the first time a few hours before, to sit at the chart table, plot a position and call up a course to her on deck. I did not realize at the time just how insanely stupid this was. Looking back I can hardly believe we got away with it.
Many, many years ago a YM instructor took me through Jack Sound in zero vis with just a GPS (this was when selective availability was on, in fact GPS was only just beginning to appear on yachts). She relied on me, someone she met for the first time a few hours before, to sit at the chart table, plot a position and call up a course to her on deck. I did not realize at the time just how insanely stupid this was. Looking back I can hardly believe we got away with it.
georgeo
New member
Very disappointed to read this post about Moonfleet. Did my YM prep and exam with them 3 years ago and found them to be excellent. Noel is a bit of a martinet but delivers the goods. I suppose his no nonsense attitude does not go down too well with some of todays products, used to being spoonfed and praised for everything they do. And the 3 other crew members on board, doing their CC, were delighted with their time
nct1
Member
Your expectations were too high, you complained about the quality of the wet weather gear, and yet I am willing to bet that the cost of a decent set of oillies would be more than what you paid with the whole course.
With respect to the training, there are times during sailing where the student will need to do as they are asked, without question and on the double, for the safety of the crew.
Having been taught by an Ex RAF trainer, there were times when I thought I knew better, or did not appriciate the direct manner sometimes, however with the boot on the other foot when coaching crew on my boat, it became clear that unlike a classroom experience, events happen in real time, and there is danger to life and limb if a student cannot do what they are asked when they are asked.
With respect to the food, if the quality of the food is your main yardstick for the course, then it is clear that you were expecting a luxury cruise rather than an instructive practical course. If they were selling it as a luxury cruise then I would agree with your complaint, but they do not appear to be offering luxury cruises on the website.
Sailing is an expensive business, if you look at what you paid vs the overheads you will see the they would have been working on a small margin.
Yes there are even cheaper courses in the Solent, but they would have had even more people on board leaving even less time for each student.
With respect to the training, there are times during sailing where the student will need to do as they are asked, without question and on the double, for the safety of the crew.
Having been taught by an Ex RAF trainer, there were times when I thought I knew better, or did not appriciate the direct manner sometimes, however with the boot on the other foot when coaching crew on my boat, it became clear that unlike a classroom experience, events happen in real time, and there is danger to life and limb if a student cannot do what they are asked when they are asked.
With respect to the food, if the quality of the food is your main yardstick for the course, then it is clear that you were expecting a luxury cruise rather than an instructive practical course. If they were selling it as a luxury cruise then I would agree with your complaint, but they do not appear to be offering luxury cruises on the website.
Sailing is an expensive business, if you look at what you paid vs the overheads you will see the they would have been working on a small margin.
Yes there are even cheaper courses in the Solent, but they would have had even more people on board leaving even less time for each student.
fireball
New member
Non of which explains the apparent poor attitude of the instructor/skipper .... yes there are times when things have to be done NOW ... but those are few and far between ... IMO (and those of several others above) an enthusiastic skipper would've made the difference .... but Carol had one that was "On Holiday" ... and obviously as grumpy as hell about it....
whipper_snapper
New member
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but Carol had one that was "On Holiday" ... and obviously as grumpy as hell about it....
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We don't know that. Given the nature of the moans in the OP, I would suspect that a large part of the problem was with the pupils. If a couple start moaning about lifejackets which are frayed at the edges and the lack of bottled water, it does not take long for the atmosphere on board to become pretty fraught. As I said above, I have seen a pupil who just didn't get it and would not listen to reason. His account of the voyage will have been utterly different from mine.
We can't tell how much, if any, of the blame lay with the school and skipper, but am very confident that at least some lay with the crew.
but Carol had one that was "On Holiday" ... and obviously as grumpy as hell about it....
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We don't know that. Given the nature of the moans in the OP, I would suspect that a large part of the problem was with the pupils. If a couple start moaning about lifejackets which are frayed at the edges and the lack of bottled water, it does not take long for the atmosphere on board to become pretty fraught. As I said above, I have seen a pupil who just didn't get it and would not listen to reason. His account of the voyage will have been utterly different from mine.
We can't tell how much, if any, of the blame lay with the school and skipper, but am very confident that at least some lay with the crew.
nct1
Member
To me it does explain the attitude of the instructor
I disagree respecting your comment about "few and far between", if you are in rough weather (as they claim to be), and are in the world's busiest shipping lane you cannot afford to have a debate about headings and boom position. Indeed for the safety of the everyone, the first lesson that HAS to be taken on board is that the Skippers instruction has to followed.
Put yourself in the instructors position, if someone had been moaning about mould on the life jackets, the quality and quantity of the food, the fact that the wet weather gear was not the latest, challenging the training being given and decisons being made, and complaining this was not the luxury cruise they had booked, in a confined space over a number of days, are you seriously telling me that you would not eventually get fed up with this ?
I disagree respecting your comment about "few and far between", if you are in rough weather (as they claim to be), and are in the world's busiest shipping lane you cannot afford to have a debate about headings and boom position. Indeed for the safety of the everyone, the first lesson that HAS to be taken on board is that the Skippers instruction has to followed.
Put yourself in the instructors position, if someone had been moaning about mould on the life jackets, the quality and quantity of the food, the fact that the wet weather gear was not the latest, challenging the training being given and decisons being made, and complaining this was not the luxury cruise they had booked, in a confined space over a number of days, are you seriously telling me that you would not eventually get fed up with this ?
BlueSkyNick
Active member
I recognise that lot !! The size 12 boots on the left holding up the beer gut are all mine.
That was all for a Biscay crossing, so lots of food - I can't bear to be hungry at sea. The reference to the chicken is because I got to see it once more than the other two as it was sprayed over the side later in the evening.
Had beer on board all ready, so this was just a top up, although a lot less by the time the crew had finished 'bonding' on the first evening.
That was all for a Biscay crossing, so lots of food - I can't bear to be hungry at sea. The reference to the chicken is because I got to see it once more than the other two as it was sprayed over the side later in the evening.
Had beer on board all ready, so this was just a top up, although a lot less by the time the crew had finished 'bonding' on the first evening.
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
The skipper (instructor) should have explained what he was doing at every stage, explaining why things should or should not be done, that's good tuition, if instructions are given with a "do as I say" attitude, some will copy the actions, unaware why they are doing so, that's not learning, that's copying.
The second half of the OP deals with the real problem here. Carol wrongly called the experience a cruise, if after three days her partner had not received any instruction, maybe the instructor who was on 'holiday', sounds like he was on a cruise as well, prioritising the collection of his wine etc.
If the instructor had shown real leadership, teaching skills and had been doing a good job as the skipper with overall responsibility for boat and crew, he would have explained food and kit issues, he would have made sure he was there on time to greet his pupils as well. He should have not assumed respect, he should have earned it. Had he done so, Carol may well have put up with the food and conditions and left the trip with a totaly different opinion of the trip.
The second half of the OP deals with the real problem here. Carol wrongly called the experience a cruise, if after three days her partner had not received any instruction, maybe the instructor who was on 'holiday', sounds like he was on a cruise as well, prioritising the collection of his wine etc.
If the instructor had shown real leadership, teaching skills and had been doing a good job as the skipper with overall responsibility for boat and crew, he would have explained food and kit issues, he would have made sure he was there on time to greet his pupils as well. He should have not assumed respect, he should have earned it. Had he done so, Carol may well have put up with the food and conditions and left the trip with a totaly different opinion of the trip.
longjohnsilver
Well-known member
<span style="color:red">Had beer on board all ready, so this was just a top up, although a lot less by the time the crew had finished 'bonding' on the first evening. </span>
That completely justifies my very valid criticism of the contents of your trolley!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
That completely justifies my very valid criticism of the contents of your trolley!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
whipper_snapper
New member
[ QUOTE ]
If the instructor had shown real leadership, teaching skills and had been doing a good job as the skipper with overall responsibility for boat and crew,...............Carol may well have put up with the food and conditions and left the trip with a totaly different opinion of the trip.
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You do not know that he did not.
You just have to accept that, try as you might, some people are just impossible to please.
If the instructor had shown real leadership, teaching skills and had been doing a good job as the skipper with overall responsibility for boat and crew,...............Carol may well have put up with the food and conditions and left the trip with a totaly different opinion of the trip.
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You do not know that he did not.
You just have to accept that, try as you might, some people are just impossible to please.
bilbobaggins
N/A
[ QUOTE ]
That completely justifies my very valid criticism of the contents of your trolley!!
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Ah, but you haven't seen the contents of MY trolley....... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
That completely justifies my very valid criticism of the contents of your trolley!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, but you haven't seen the contents of MY trolley....... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
fireball
New member
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree respecting your comment about "few and far between", if you are in rough weather (as they claim to be), and are in the world's busiest shipping lane you cannot afford to have a debate about headings and boom position.
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Who said anything about debate?!
Single line instructions are not the way to teach - even if you are on a cruise the skipper can be teaching - heck I learnt from the lead crew on a flotilla I went on ... and it was down to an enthusiastic crew - no matter what the "students" or passengers were like. Instructions should generally be backed up with reasoning - like, "we're going to gybe so we can miss that ship" - with the crew not understanding what he may or may not be thinking they are not going to be happy or as co-operative ... they are adults and should be capable of rational thought.
As Galadriel said - you have to earn respect as a skipper, and they can only give that respect if the skipper acts accordingly, he had no control over the LJs or wet weather gear and I think this is probably just an additional moan by someone that expects more than they're paying for ... however,
He should've been at the first meeting promptly, sent someone else to meet/greet or offered a good explanation for being late. He could've gone through the food inventory with the crew - this would've sorted out a few things to start with - it's probably not his fault what was onboard ... but he will get the blame for it.
Whilst in France the view was that he was delaying departure so he could get his shopping done, rather than look at the weather - if the weather wasn't an issue for him then he could've sat the crew down and explained what he was doing and the reasons behind it.
The OP said that the skipper/instructor said he was "on holiday" - IMO that is a big part of the problem - he didn't want to be there and was probably filling in for someone else.
I disagree respecting your comment about "few and far between", if you are in rough weather (as they claim to be), and are in the world's busiest shipping lane you cannot afford to have a debate about headings and boom position.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who said anything about debate?!
Single line instructions are not the way to teach - even if you are on a cruise the skipper can be teaching - heck I learnt from the lead crew on a flotilla I went on ... and it was down to an enthusiastic crew - no matter what the "students" or passengers were like. Instructions should generally be backed up with reasoning - like, "we're going to gybe so we can miss that ship" - with the crew not understanding what he may or may not be thinking they are not going to be happy or as co-operative ... they are adults and should be capable of rational thought.
As Galadriel said - you have to earn respect as a skipper, and they can only give that respect if the skipper acts accordingly, he had no control over the LJs or wet weather gear and I think this is probably just an additional moan by someone that expects more than they're paying for ... however,
He should've been at the first meeting promptly, sent someone else to meet/greet or offered a good explanation for being late. He could've gone through the food inventory with the crew - this would've sorted out a few things to start with - it's probably not his fault what was onboard ... but he will get the blame for it.
Whilst in France the view was that he was delaying departure so he could get his shopping done, rather than look at the weather - if the weather wasn't an issue for him then he could've sat the crew down and explained what he was doing and the reasons behind it.
The OP said that the skipper/instructor said he was "on holiday" - IMO that is a big part of the problem - he didn't want to be there and was probably filling in for someone else.
bilbobaggins
N/A
[ QUOTE ]
The reference to the chicken
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Bugger! That was meant to be an 'in' joke - but it's been well 'outed' now. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
As for the movable liquid ballast, that had largely to be jettisoned, for it was a downhill run/deep reach all the way, 50 hours pub-to-pub as I recall. The tree huggers on 'ere needn't be alarmed; the noxious dense liquid ballast was rendered more or less non-toxic before being returned to its proper element.....
Poor 'BigNick'. I think he's off Spanish chicken butties for life! I'll have to teach him the Combat Survival mantra that any suspect foodstuff - such as yellow lizard, blowfish, roadkill, Spanish chickadee - is trial-fed first of all to the smallest and lightest of the team. He is then watched carefully for some hours, and if he survives, you can eat the rest of it. If he doesn't, you eat him instead - but boil him carefully to get rid of the toxins...... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
The reference to the chicken
[/ QUOTE ]
Bugger! That was meant to be an 'in' joke - but it's been well 'outed' now. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
As for the movable liquid ballast, that had largely to be jettisoned, for it was a downhill run/deep reach all the way, 50 hours pub-to-pub as I recall. The tree huggers on 'ere needn't be alarmed; the noxious dense liquid ballast was rendered more or less non-toxic before being returned to its proper element.....
Poor 'BigNick'. I think he's off Spanish chicken butties for life! I'll have to teach him the Combat Survival mantra that any suspect foodstuff - such as yellow lizard, blowfish, roadkill, Spanish chickadee - is trial-fed first of all to the smallest and lightest of the team. He is then watched carefully for some hours, and if he survives, you can eat the rest of it. If he doesn't, you eat him instead - but boil him carefully to get rid of the toxins...... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Shorn100
New member
What's worse than a 'Cruise from Hell' course....
Well, an evening in with Bilbo Baggins looking at the photos of his latest cruise, of course!
"And here's another one of the food just before we set off"
"Here's one of the food in the boot of the car"
"Here's one of me stowing the food"
"Here's one of the food stowed below"
"Here's one of the food half way during the trip"
"Here's one of the empty carton of fruit juice"
"Here's a picture of a memorable sausage"
Nice one, Bilbo. Have you anymore interesting photos?
Shorn /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Well, an evening in with Bilbo Baggins looking at the photos of his latest cruise, of course!
"And here's another one of the food just before we set off"
"Here's one of the food in the boot of the car"
"Here's one of me stowing the food"
"Here's one of the food stowed below"
"Here's one of the food half way during the trip"
"Here's one of the empty carton of fruit juice"
"Here's a picture of a memorable sausage"
Nice one, Bilbo. Have you anymore interesting photos?
Shorn /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
longjohnsilver
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That completely justifies my very valid criticism of the contents of your trolley!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, but you haven't seen the contents of MY trolley....... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
But it's recognised by all that you're completely off your trolley!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]
That completely justifies my very valid criticism of the contents of your trolley!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, but you haven't seen the contents of MY trolley....... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
But it's recognised by all that you're completely off your trolley!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
I'm making an assumption based on the information in the OP, something everyone who has berated the OP'er has done.
Or, do you think 3 days aboard without any teaching acceptable?
Or, do you think an instructor that gives his pupils such commitment that 'hes on holiday' Ok?
Or, Doing a wine run part the contract he has with the school?
...and you have to accept, as much as they want to, some people should never be teachers.
Or, do you think 3 days aboard without any teaching acceptable?
Or, do you think an instructor that gives his pupils such commitment that 'hes on holiday' Ok?
Or, Doing a wine run part the contract he has with the school?
...and you have to accept, as much as they want to, some people should never be teachers.
Koolie
New member
Very bad to do this to you.
Jim, Iread your post and frown, have you see their pamflets?
They promise everything, We all no that sailing is a weather dependant thing to do, but it can be utilised better.
Food:
well I am going to say that alant, who was my instuctor, always provided us with well cooked homemade food, and always a lot of it.
On his boat for breakfast you can have a full england breakfast, toast, cereal, fresh fruit for you musile, yoghurts,
Luncheon: freash homemade pasties, that his wife makes, or a nice sald.
Dinner: Home made pie, beef and mushroom or Chicken and mushroom, Chicken Korma home made, massive minted lamb steaks.
There is always home baked cakes aboard, shortbread, and Tina's millionaire shortbread.
Wey beyond the call of duty, with his food, Oh yeah the puddings that he does, minranges with fresh cream and berries, Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
He can teach also!!
Credit where credit is due were I say.
Sad Day for Moonfleet, but in comparrison to how many happy customers?????????/
I vote alant and AT Sailing Limited!!!!
Isaac.
Jim, Iread your post and frown, have you see their pamflets?
They promise everything, We all no that sailing is a weather dependant thing to do, but it can be utilised better.
Food:
well I am going to say that alant, who was my instuctor, always provided us with well cooked homemade food, and always a lot of it.
On his boat for breakfast you can have a full england breakfast, toast, cereal, fresh fruit for you musile, yoghurts,
Luncheon: freash homemade pasties, that his wife makes, or a nice sald.
Dinner: Home made pie, beef and mushroom or Chicken and mushroom, Chicken Korma home made, massive minted lamb steaks.
There is always home baked cakes aboard, shortbread, and Tina's millionaire shortbread.
Wey beyond the call of duty, with his food, Oh yeah the puddings that he does, minranges with fresh cream and berries, Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
He can teach also!!
Credit where credit is due were I say.
Sad Day for Moonfleet, but in comparrison to how many happy customers?????????/
I vote alant and AT Sailing Limited!!!!
Isaac.
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