Moody v Bavaria

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Seems like no competition, or is it?

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Chalk and cheese.

Seriously though.......... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
HAd a 1989 Moody 31 mk 2 for 4 seasons. Sold for more than I paid for it. Break even sailing? I can't count routine maintenance of course. Sailed a Bav 34, 36, 39 All good in their way but a 10 yr old 34 shows her age. My Moody was beautiful. I go Moody as long as engine was good. A new one will cost a packet.
 
Good points Andy. I have looked at numerous 31s all with original engines many in quite good condition (none perfect). The engine has been my main concern, I could live with rig/ electonics/sails issues but the thought of having to either replace or rely on a tired 20 year old one is somewhat discomforting,
I suppose having owned a 40 year old wooden boat for 12 years has made me reluctant to inherit an ongoing maintenance project!
For a few grand more than the cost of one of these Moodies I find I can get a small 3/4 year old Bavaria lightly used and with presumably few breakages in the near future.
Your point about the 10 year old ones is valid but with only SWMBO and me aboard I cannot see any heavy use which may accelerate wear and tear.
No doubt if we were contemplating living aboard and anchoring off the Pitcairns then maybe I would be thinking in a different direction!
 
Why being afraid of an 20 years old engine? Have bought last year a M31 with the original engine and engine looks fine.

Replacement of a few O-rings and engine is running smoothly. My father has an engine from 1978 and it is still running smoothly. If you do the normal (yearly) maintenance like refreshment of oil plus filter and check the standard things then the engine should run smoothly.

If you buy a secondhand boat take care about the engine by looking at cold start, smoking (different colors) , oil, leakage, water cooling and strange sounds and so on.

Back to the starting question: moody vs bav. The prices says enough so you have ask the question to yourself what you want. The only thing I can say on all reactions is that an older boat could realy look nice and if the maintenance of an engine was done right there is also no prblems with it. This year people asked me if the boat was stored ashore for 10 years cause it looked so well (this says enough).

Erwin
 
But the point is that if the engine does go - and not all have been looked after - it is 15-20% of the value of the boat to replace it and you will get very little of that back unless you keep the boat for a long time. And judging from various posts here that particular engine seems to give problems as it ages.
 
Thought this might come up. Have difficulty with this equation between weight and sailing performance. In the development of yachts the Moody is a lightweight. Old long keel yachts were that shape because it was difficult to make wood take any other form. because the shape had little form stability a big lump of lead was hung on the bottom so that it could stand up to its sailpower. Then it also had to be heavier to be able to cope with the weight.

Various clever engineering orientated designers such as Uffa Fox and Jack Giles started experimenting with lighter displacement hull forms as materials developed. If you put a bulbed fin keel and a spade rudder on a Fairey Atalanta you would very nearly have a Bavaria!

Then along came GRP which removed the constraints of form. However many of the early offerings like the Nic 32 were wood boats built of GRP complete with the huge lump of lead. Even when the long keel hull form was abandoned boats were heavily built because designers did not understand the properties of the material. So they just poured in more of the now cheap material. Such boats are often described here as "built like a brick outhouse" - as if that was a desirable quality in a yacht! Think early Macwesters, Snapdragons etc.

By the mid 1970's designers had been experimenting with new hull forms, separating keel from rudder aand lowering displacement. Often they used moulded wood but that was too expensive. Then Moody introduced the Angus Primrose 33/36/39 range. Flat bottom, fin keel, almost spade rudder, light displacement, modest rig, loads of space. Teeth were sucked. Who would buy a boat like that? Within 10 years most builders followed the lead. This started the golden era of British boat building which for the first time allowed middle England access to serious offshore yachts. Maybe thats the reason for the seeming emotional attachment to boats of that era. It lasted for getting on for 25 years and the Moody 31 is one of the best of that era. However, if you had shown that boat to a yottie in 1970 he would have told you it would never sell - or sail. Light displacement, fin keel, rudder stuck out the back there?

Then along came Johnny Foreigner (aided and abetted by some British designers) who had figured out that with 6 tons of material they could build a 37ft boat rather than a 32ft. Same ballast, same rig, but taking weight out of the structure by careful design and good use of the properties of the material. The bigger hull envelope provided more accommodation and space for goodies. The AWB was born. However, to make it all work you could not build it in a waterside shed or at the back of an industrial estate, so the uK industry slowly died. The fact that the new markets were elsewhere did not help.

Many people who buy AWBs have been through the "proper boat" phase - you rarely hear them wanting to go back, except to relive their youthful experiences.
 
Very well put Tranona.

The tech bits about hull forms etc are very interesting and I am sure that this will draw out more comment.

I am one of the people who have been through the MABs and am now into my first AWB.

The first MAB was a homebuild by my father. Intention was to be smallest boat round the world but someone pipped him to it. (Wild Duck if anyone is interested). This thing was capable to destroying a "Brick Outhouse" if it came up against one.

Next was a Westerly22, a definite brick outhouse.

Then a Shipman28 which was def mankey

And now a Bavaria.

I would love to sail the first 3 and would, if I could, buy them all back and put them in a shed to help keep the memories going. But, no matter how much I would like to have them back, I would def not sell my AWB.

Winters are now spent sailing (in much more comfort too). 1 or 2 week-ends on winter maintenance. A very, very different story to the MAB days.

Now I am not knocking the MAB boys. Their choice (or budget). Just don't knock my choice.
 
The age of the engine is not the issue, it's how many hours it's run and how it was loaded. I have a 20 year old VP2002 on my Moody 28, I took the head off this winter and the bores and pistons were as good as new with very little wear. The surveyor thought the engine was seized (flat battery) at the pre purchase survey. If at all worried about the engine get a good engine man to have a look at it starting and running, could save you a packet.
As for Moodys v's Bav who cares any boat is what you make it.
Rgds
Bob
 
I suppose the fact that you have looked at numerous 31's all with original engines tells you that engines are not a problem.
But there is THIS PROBLEM with volvo 2000 series
 
Suggest you look at the first page of the forum. New post suggestions for replacing the Volvo in a Moody 31! Common type of post here if you hang about!

But of course you are right. When I replaced a Stuart Turner in Tranona with a Yanmar after 30 years, bores were as good as new - did not make it an engine worth keeping though! Although it did go in another boat, mainly to maintain authenticity and character rather than any intention of using it! Although if you were up with your catechism it might splutter into life - but stop just as soon as it knew you really needed it!
 
I think all we have managed to prove is that as ever it is horses for courses, every one has their own set of needs when boat hunting and they have to find the best match from what is on the market. For some that will be the Bavaria or some other modern boat for some it will be an older Moody or Westerly, and for some it wont matter that much as long as the finacial deal is right.
 
You know what, that is the best thought out and explained/reasoned explanation I have seen on this forum!
Stu
PS I got 1600 back off KK because of what we discussed
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thought this might come up. Have difficulty with this equation between weight and sailing performance. In the development of yachts the Moody is a lightweight. Old long keel yachts were that shape because it was difficult to make wood take any other form. because the shape had little form stability a big lump of lead was hung on the bottom so that it could stand up to its sailpower. Then it also had to be heavier to be able to cope with the weight.

Various clever engineering orientated designers such as Uffa Fox and Jack Giles started experimenting with lighter displacement hull forms as materials developed. If you put a bulbed fin keel and a spade rudder on a Fairey Atalanta you would very nearly have a Bavaria!

Then along came GRP which removed the constraints of form. However many of the early offerings like the Nic 32 were wood boats built of GRP complete with the huge lump of lead. Even when the long keel hull form was abandoned boats were heavily built because designers did not understand the properties of the material. So they just poured in more of the now cheap material. Such boats are often described here as "built like a brick outhouse" - as if that was a desirable quality in a yacht! Think early Macwesters, Snapdragons etc.

By the mid 1970's designers had been experimenting with new hull forms, separating keel from rudder aand lowering displacement. Often they used moulded wood but that was too expensive. Then Moody introduced the Angus Primrose 33/36/39 range. Flat bottom, fin keel, almost spade rudder, light displacement, modest rig, loads of space. Teeth were sucked. Who would buy a boat like that? Within 10 years most builders followed the lead. This started the golden era of British boat building which for the first time allowed middle England access to serious offshore yachts. Maybe thats the reason for the seeming emotional attachment to boats of that era. It lasted for getting on for 25 years and the Moody 31 is one of the best of that era. However, if you had shown that boat to a yottie in 1970 he would have told you it would never sell - or sail. Light displacement, fin keel, rudder stuck out the back there?

Then along came Johnny Foreigner (aided and abetted by some British designers) who had figured out that with 6 tons of material they could build a 37ft boat rather than a 32ft. Same ballast, same rig, but taking weight out of the structure by careful design and good use of the properties of the material. The bigger hull envelope provided more accommodation and space for goodies. The AWB was born. However, to make it all work you could not build it in a waterside shed or at the back of an industrial estate, so the uK industry slowly died. The fact that the new markets were elsewhere did not help.

Many people who buy AWBs have been through the "proper boat" phase - you rarely hear them wanting to go back, except to relive their youthful experiences.

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Really excellent reply. Have not heard the long keel/wood analogy but it makes perfect sense.

I would be very happy to own an AWB and despite owning a long keeled GRP MAB ,have enjoyed chartering AWB's with excellent performance and comfort.

The only reason I can think of my long keeler paying off for me at present, compared to an AWB the same length is size differential. My 8.5 metre boat has slower movements , hangs on to sail a bit longer and takes the nasty stuff on the nose pretty well. Nice things for a single hander . I don't think a Parker 27 or Legend 27
would do this. As mentioned, the thick lay up etc is a misnomer.
 
I actually went through this process 2 years ago.I could have afforded a Bav32 about 5 years old,& looked at quite a few.I also looked at Fulmar,Storm & Moody31.I ended up with a Moody31,because I liked the way it sailed(I have sailed a Bav).I have the fin keeled version which in my opinion sails much better than the twin keel version(of anything).I managed to find one which had a rebuilt engine(new pistons,rings,bearings,rebored,injectors,fuel pump,etc & the gearbox rebuilt )cost over £4k.It has radar,Yeoman plotter,Eber heating,hot water,new upolstery & had over £20k spent on it in total.I have added new sails(Laminate Triradial) & a plotter & a few bits & pieces & it should keep me happy for a few years.I saw a load of tat when I was looking & must have seen 40 to 50 boats.You will find if you look at the Byron yacht handicaps website that the M31 is very close to the handicap of a Fulmar(both fin keel) Moody31-996,Fulmar-999 whilst the Bav31 is 981.The Bav is a bit faster.
What I have noticed is that ofter when beating up or down the Wallet(usually down) we can hold full sail up to 19/20 knots whilst Bavs are lying on their ear or are reefed.This may be because I plumped for a 130% genoa in lieu of the 150% often used on the M31.
You should get a good M31 for around £30k nowadays but you will need to spend time looking,& you will need to spend some money to bring it up to scratch.
I plumped for the M31 instead of a Bav because(this may sound funny) my wife does not sail,so I could please just myself.If my wife sailed I might have gone for the better accommodation of a Bav or a newer boat.
This is not a recommendation by me but just some insight into how I came to my decision.
 
T
As you know I chartered a 46 Bav this summer, pile of poo, but that was down to the "owners" not maintaining her properly, what I will say is that despite that she sailed like a goosed witch! I mean it went like stink, (this summer for some reason the nw 2-3 turned into a 6 every afternoon, didnt even have to reef!
S
 
Thanks for the compliments. Glad it is appreciated as it took me 4 goes to write and post because my internet connection here in China dropped out.

Pleased you got a result from K. Think they are struggling a bit to keep on top of things. The smallest boat on their new fleet is now a 38. They sent 15 extra boats to Corfu this winter for lay up.

Got my 37 well away from them now. Spent about 3k on refurb (mainly upholstery) and upgrades. Delighted with the result. Good as new!
 
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