Monthly funds

[Slow_boat]

But I never even consider that I could turn the boat back into money. I just don't think in terms of figures or money. That way lies the madness of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

 

[SvenglishTommy]

Blinder,

I'd be interestd how you got your expences so low

Me too, I've also been having a cost nightmare in Spain, being charged up to €50 a night, costs bare no relation to pilot books, already vague, estimates. Managed to anchor twice only on the costas del sol and blanca, usually in horrific swell, and as you say most marked anchorages blocked off with yellow bouys. They are charging more for a night ina marina than in a hotel in many places.

 

[Tranona]

But I never even consider that I could turn the boat back into money. I just don't think in terms of figures or money. That way lies the madness of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Just wonder what you are trying to ignore. You paid money for the boat - so how can you not think in terms of money? Did the boat just appear out of nothing? Equally, when you sell it, what are you going to get in exchange for it if it is not money?

Nothing to do with your last comment. Of course you know both the cost - because you paid for it, and the value because you have it. Just like anybody else who has possessions that they bought.

Very difficult to exist in our society without dealing with money and the figures that represent wealth.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Just wonder what you are trying to ignore. You paid money for the boat - so how can you not think in terms of money? Did the boat just appear out of nothing? Equally, when you sell it, what are you going to get in exchange for it if it is not money?

Nothing to do with your last comment. Of course you know both the cost - because you paid for it, and the value because you have it. Just like anybody else who has possessions that they bought.

Very difficult to exist in our society without dealing with money and the figures that represent wealth.

The happiness I and my family have had from owning our own boat for the last 18 years is better than the return on any investment.
My daughters grew up over these`s years in a wonderful environment, meeting and making friend with dozens of people of different nationalities. How would you cost that out?

 

[Slow_boat]

Just wonder what you are trying to ignore. You paid money for the boat - so how can you not think in terms of money? Did the boat just appear out of nothing? Equally, when you sell it, what are you going to get in exchange for it if it is not money?

Nothing to do with your last comment. Of course you know both the cost - because you paid for it, and the value because you have it. Just like anybody else who has possessions that they bought.

Very difficult to exist in our society without dealing with money and the figures that represent wealth.

I think of my boat as my boat. True, I sold some other stuff to get her but having done so I never think of her monetary value. I bought her outright, therefore the money is spent. She is not an expence any more. Well, a few hundred in mooring and maintenance. I can't undesrtand how I could think of her in terms of pounds shillings and ounces.

But I'm the sad sort of person who considers a house as a home, not an investment.

 

[RogerG]

Having joined this forum recently, I've just read through this whole thread for the first time and find it fascinating.

What fascinates me more than anything is the obsession that some people have with the importance of maximising your wealth. I have spent my life making a living out of things that I do for fun, shaping and changing them and adding to them to reflect changing circumstances. I was divorced a number of years ago and gave my house and business to my ex wife as they were important to her and not to me. I then earned enough by working hard, to buy the riverboat that I live on for cash along with another small boat, and do enough work to meet my costs.

I remarried 6 years ago and we are now in the process of changing boats to a bluewater sailing vessel and will continue to pay for the costs arising from living, maintenance etc, by continuing to work at what we enjoy as and when we have the need and the opportunity.

Any boat that we purchase may be worth less or more than we paid for it, when and if we decide to eventually sell it, but that has absolutely no relevance at all to us until we reach that situation. Each stage of life will be handled as it develops, without a constant eye on maximising our investment.

In the course of my work, I regularly meet people whose whole lives are devoted to working 12 hours per day, 5 and sometimes 6 days per week, year in and year out. They are obsessed with buying their property, clearing their mortgage, getting new cars, paying for an expensive annual packaged holiday, leaving something for their kids etc etc. What is the point!!! We would rather be fit and healthy doing what we want now, than having financial security to support us when we have missed the opportunity and are too feeble to care.

They all seem to have an idealistic distant goal of being able to retire with no mortgage, and funds to finance a comfortable life. The reality is that many will never reach that goal, either dying before they get there, (I have known many) or finding redundancy, ill health and many other traps along the way.

Life to me is about fulfillment. Having to work a lifetime to buy a house and build up funds for investment, to eventually arrive at financing a boat and time to enjoy it, while still worrying about all the other things, is hell on earth!

If you want to do it, DO IT! if you can't afford it, find a way to do it so that you can. Security is worth nothing when you are dead.

Roger

 

[Tranona]

Still not sure what you are afraid of? You clearly value your boat and what it gives you, and you seem to say that exceeds its monetary value. Therefore for you a good investment. You don't have to constantly worry about its monetary value, but that does not mean it does not have one. Nothing is forever and at some point you (or your legatees) will have to consider its monetary value - when it is sold.

Problem is that "investment" has become associated with abnormal returns, particularly in housing, whereas using the definition I did earlier, it is an essential part of our wealth based society - so don't be ashamed of using the word! After all it has allowed many people (including myself) to start with nothing and amass wealth - both in money and quality of life terms.

Just imagine asking your grandfather, or even father if they could ever have contemplated owning an ocean going boat and be in a position to go off cruising without having to work. They would think you had come from outer space.

 

[bedouin]

I think of my boat as my boat. True, I sold some other stuff to get her but having done so I never think of her monetary value. I bought her outright, therefore the money is spent. She is not an expence any more. Well, a few hundred in mooring and maintenance. I can't undesrtand how I could think of her in terms of pounds shillings and ounces.

But I'm the sad sort of person who considers a house as a home, not an investment.

In other words you are rich enough not to have to worry about money (and that doesn't necessarily mean very rich). Not everyone is that lucky.

 

[SvenglishTommy]

In other words you are rich enough not to have to worry about money (and that doesn't necessarily mean very rich). Not everyone is that lucky.

So true. I wish I was rich enough to not have to worry about the money I have 'invested' in my boat, I dont expect to get any kind of financial return on my investment (now anyone who has ever owned a boat would know how stupid that would be), but when I bought my new boat the resale value, and almost more importanatly the ability to sell reasonably quickly was a big factor. The return on my investment will be the couple of years of living aboard and sailing around, same return as all liveaboards and indeed all boat owners, but when the cash runs out I'm going to have to get back to reality and sell the boat and get a job again, there just aint no two ways about it.

 

[RogerG]

I'm certainly not afraid of the word investment, but that depends on the how you define that word. Investment to most people generally would probably mean having some money which they invest in an account or property that would give some financial reward or accrument over a period of time, perhaps a buffer against inflation. For me, investment means a return to me or mine of a more aesthetic kind. That could include emotional fulfilment, the satisfying of an ambition and many other things far removed from capital returns or monetary gains.

I for one could not sail off in an ocean going yacht without some financial income, but my life has been built around working to live, rather than living to work. I have always tailored my work to my lifestyle and will continue to do so until I die, retirement is not an option and never a neccessity for me.

My father however, chose a conventional lifestyle interrupted by the war and would never follow his dreams, preferring security.

Roger

 

[Tranona]

This discussion started off because of a request to explain what was meant by "opportunity cost" and "depreciation" - in the "real world".

This I tried to do, also later defining "investment". However, nowhere do these definitions refer to money. Problem is they have come to have monetary oriented comotations - hijacked by the scribbling classes!

As you rightly said in your first post, many people get obsessed with wealth in a monetary sense for its own sake, whereas others see wealth in a much wider context. However, you cannot avoid using money at some point because it is our common unit of measure for measuring assets, exchanging them and to make matters more complicated as a store of wealth in its own right.

Once you get away from the narrow definitions of the terms, you can see how useful they are in understanding how we make our choices, as they are capable of accommodating many different approaches to "value".

Personally I prefer to see decisions in terms of costs and benefits as that fits in better with the acquisition of assets. So you can then easily distinguish between, for example renting a house and buying one. Renting does not meet the definition of an investment as the benefit is only in the present, not the future as it is if you buy a property. Just the same with comparing chartering a boat instead of buying. If you buy you have the benefit forever, chartering you have it for just the period of the charter. It may be that like Jim when you do the calculation using the common measure of money you decide that for you the cost of investing in ownership does not give you the benefits you want - so you charter. In different circumstances you can arrive at a different decision - I worked out, for me, buying a charter boat and using it for myself for my holidays was cheaper than chartering and therefore a good investment. Neither decision is right or wrong - only appropriate to the individual and his circumstances - and sometimes we cast the costs and benefits in a way that justifies the rightness of a decision already taken.

Hopefully we won't get into semantics about income and expenditure, although they are at least less abstract than investment, depreciation and opportunity cost.

 

[RogerG]

I agree broadlly with what you are saying, and this is of course becoming a philosophical discussion rather than widely differing viewpoints.

One point in question would perhaps be your viewing buying a property as an investment in the future, whereas renting would only give benefits in the present. This could also be interpeted as buying being a long term investment in your financial future but at the expense of crippling mortgage repayments and years of trying to support the debt with associated worry. Renting could be seen as an immediate solution to a housing worry, whilst giving benefits of no negative equity worries, no long term debt and interest concerns, and an investment in your emotional wellbeing.

It all depends on where you are coming from and your own requirements. Personally I would prefer to own rather than rent, so I am not disagreeing with your views, just looking at alternative standpoints

Roger

 

[Slow_boat]

In other words you are rich enough not to have to worry about money (and that doesn't necessarily mean very rich). Not everyone is that lucky.

I don't worry about money. Money scares me so I don't think about it. I have no credit cards because I don't control them properly. I look at the bottom line of my bank statement, see if I'm within my overdraft limit and try to spend a bit less next month. There's not a lot less I can spend but I'll find a way. I have enough to get by day to day and can't understand how anyone on my level of income can even contemplate having savings or investments. I'm rich enough for me.

In 18 months time I will be out of a job at 55yrs old, unqualified and on half pay. Living on the boat is part of the plan to cut expenses. It's called cutting your cloth. Money spent is money spent. It's as simple as that.

 

[V1701]

I think those of us who are having difficulty with some viewpoints is because they seem to reflect unhealthy anything & everything has a price tag type thinking. True though it might be when it comes down to it, it's to some people abhorrent and soulless. Think of us as stupid for not doing it, accuse us of putting our heads in the sand or call us rich for living on small, inexpensive boats that we own outright. It doesn't really matter, we are just less preoccupied with money and material wealth than others and I think probably healthier and happier for it...

 

[Conachair]

Do people really buy boats (and other things) with an eye to depreceation and this 'lost oppotunity' idea? That just sounds such a sad and depressing world. Probably run by accountants.

Nope. Money doesn't exist outside the heads of humans, it's only a concept. Same with reality, different for everyone. You can think about it any way you want. A boat can be a depreciating asset or a method on which to collect memories before you die. Both viewpoints valid, as long as you got some cash together to buy the boat in the first place. It is what you think it is.
Mine's paid for, currently working to get some more of that awfully useful conceptual money stuff and then off again to live further south where money isn't quite so high up the list of priorities

As for monthly spanding, well bluewater is zero No shops out there. Anchored varies on country and social life, beer is poss biggest single thing. If you are on a budget then don't even think about parking up in a marina, apart from berth fees you're just far to close to the shops and the bar

Staying out of the bar and living quietly but still very happily, €100 a week would keep me well fed. You can have time or money, both is a bit trickier.

 

[bedouin]

In 18 months time I will be out of a job at 55yrs old, unqualified and on half pay. Living on the boat is part of the plan to cut expenses. It's called cutting your cloth. Money spent is money spent. It's as simple as that.

Threads are getting nicely crossed here!

That is the whole point, to be able to retire at 55 on half salary is a dream I cannot get anywhere near. I've been contributing between 10% and 20% of my salary for most of my working life. If I retire at 65 I would be luck to get a quarter of my final salary as a pension.

Once you get to retirement- if you have a guaranteed income then provided that is above the minimum required, you are financially secure. My parents retired on probably less than a quarter of their salaries (probably similar to yours) and were very comfortable in retirement

 

[Adrian]

Do people really buy boats (and other things) with an eye to depreceation and this 'lost oppotunity' idea? That just sounds such a sad and depressing world. Probably run by accountants.

I raised the money for my boat by selling a car and some motorbikes that I had accumulated over the years. I paid cash. So far as I am concerned, that cash has now gone, written of, lost. I spent it and that's that. However, I do have a boat that gives me much pleasure. We shall be off long term cruising soon. I want to know of daily/weekly/monthly expences, not try to work out how much the money I'd bought the boat with would have made some 'investment fund manager' in bonus if I'd kept it as cash.

+1

 

[Tranona]

I think those of us who are having difficulty with some viewpoints is because they seem to reflect unhealthy anything & everything has a price tag type thinking. True though it might be when it comes down to it, it's to some people abhorrent and soulless. Think of us as stupid for not doing it, accuse us of putting our heads in the sand or call us rich for living on small, inexpensive boats that we own outright. It doesn't really matter, we are just less preoccupied with money and material wealth than others and I think probably healthier and happier for it...

You are perhaps falling into the trap of applying value judgements where they may not be relevant. It is not about looking down on others or considering some things as "unhealthy" - it is understanding the choices available and how people make their decisions.

Of course some people consider monetary aspects more than others in making their decisions. In many cases individuals' choices are constrained by the amount of money they have - but they still have to make decisions, and may well place non-monetary criteria higher in their order of priorities. One of the difficulties however, is that the "costs" are invariably (but not always) expressed in money terms whereas the benefits are usually not. This is not a problem for most individuals because they do their own calculation as to the value of the benefits in relation to cost - eloquently expressed by a number of posters here.

Where using monetary measures is of real help is where you have a choice of courses of action with different costs for the same benefits or different benefits for the same costs. In other words if you don't have much money then perhaps the pressure is greater to maximize the benefits from what you have. You can do this, for example by not using the money for things that you do not value and concentrating on those things you do. You can see this happening when an individuals' income falls as in retirement or in a period of unemployment - or even when people choose to live on a reduced income by working less or taking a lower paid job they like doing.

The great thing is that there is room for all kinds of approaches to living. I admire those who live frugally as I have done so myself in the past (including living on a 26 footer for a year) - but it would not be my choice.

Which gets us back to the question in the original post - how much do you spend when cruising/living on a boat (I paraphrase) - to which there is no single answer - all you can do is look at the range of experiences and see where your preferences fit. There is, of course a band in the middle that accommodates the majority, and then there are the extremes of minimalist (a la Annie Hill) at one end and the sybaritic lifestyle of the super yacht at the other. Little different from the range you would get if you asked the same question about living on land!

 

[powbongo]

We bought a boat 4 years ago after living with our in-laws on their boat and thoroughly enjoying the life and experience. We invested a reasonably large sum of money on our boat and have continued to invest in her over the last four years making her into a comfortable living area for the two of us once we are able to retire. To be honest we have only ploughed money into the whole business, but you know what I couldn’t give a damn, the enjoyment that we have had planning and building our dream has been extremely rewarding, the opportunities that we have had to sail have been stunning and the thought that one day we will live aboard her is something to be looked forward to. On the other hand we could of invested our money in that wide risk spreading share portfolio that we were advised to do ……………… I don’t think so!

 

[Slow_boat]

Threads are getting nicely crossed here!

That is the whole point, to be able to retire at 55 on half salary is a dream I cannot get anywhere near. I've been contributing between 10% and 20% of my salary for most of my working life. If I retire at 65 I would be luck to get a quarter of my final salary as a pension.

Once you get to retirement- if you have a guaranteed income then provided that is above the minimum required, you are financially secure. My parents retired on probably less than a quarter of their salaries (probably similar to yours) and were very comfortable in retirement

Your dream is to be unemployed, ineligable for benifit and living on £12k pa at the age of 55?