Monthly funds

[TQA]

It is only money and there are no pockets in a shroud.

 

[Sandyman]

>1. No Boat faults.

If you exclude that you could be in big trouble. The general view is maintenance is 5% of the value of the boat every year. However that depends on how much you sail and if you liveaboard 24x365. The bottom line is everything mechanical (and some electrical) will break and if you sail a lot things will break more than once. We reckoned to spend two days a week on maintenance and repairs with the odd month off when nothing broke. The reason is most boat kit is designed for weekend sailors.

Your right there. Probably one of the main reasons why I read so often about folk spending so much time in port waiting for spares to arrive. Then again when I look at some of the boats advertised as long distance cruisers I have to wonder if they are really up to it having been built with the weekend sailor in mind. ie: cheaply & with lightweight equipment
and few if any back-up systems.

I can understand the weekenders being worried about depreciation, I guess brought on by a lack of knowledge & the concern they may end up buying a plastic pig because of the lack of experience, but I do not understand such an attitude from a true long term liveaboard.

If you are worried about depreciation then maybe you shouldn't be a liveaboard in the first place !! What does it really matter anyway, if you are going to be a lifetime seagoing liveaboard ? You know, or should do, that time & the elements will take there toll & probably eventually catch up with you despite your efforts.

Being liveaboards for some time now we have come to realise that material wealth is total bollox. It means nothing. Its unimportant in our lives.
Material wealth is for foolish landlubbers. It keeps the crazy economy going.
Long may they stay Landlubbers

 

[charles_reed]

Good morning, on this lovely day.

Question. and for this, we need to assume a few things,

1. No Boat faults.
2. No mad drinking nights
3. Not in a marina everynight

4 Millionaires need not reply to this thread .

How much on average do you spend per month, when cruising. (blue water)

Agree that excluding boat-maintenance is an oxymoron - my costs, mainly with one aboard, run at about €750/month, but boat maintenance adds a mean of €250/month to that figure.
Few marinas, mainly eating aboard and anchoring 6/12.
Lay-up costs excluded, but amount to about €1500pa.

Mind you, if you really mean "blue water" you're into a totally different scheme of things - I'm talking about cruising in the Med.

 

[jordanbasset]

Agree that living costs can vary greatly and it does depend on your own lifestyle. We are now based in Greece and in the summer months we spend around £1000 a month for two. This does include eating out 2-3 times per week and the odd excursion ashore.

Re running costs, (maintenance, berthing fees, upgrades, antifoul etc)have kept a detailed check on this and for us this year it is running at just under £5000. This includes a couple of big ticket items (new dinghy and solar panels), fortunately little has gone wrong with the boat, a Bavaria 38.

 

[Koeketiene]

It is only money and there are no pockets in a shroud.

+1

 

[V1701]

Have a read of books like Annie Hill's "Voyaging on a Small Income", "Shrimpy" is well worth a read (free download here). Another one you might like is "Seasteading" by Jerome Fitzgerald. Sounds like you're interested in and want to know more about that sort of sailing/lifestyle, more Nina & Henrik than cruising the Mediterranean. Having a relatively small, seaworthy to start with boat, keeping its systems as simple as possible, certainly no fridges, watermakers, calorifiers, generators, etc. All that talk about depreciating assets, etc. - is that really what's going around in some people's minds? Sounds very unhealthy to me...

 

[Slow_boat]

Afraid it is real money and not just made up figures. The made up figures are when you estimate what, for example depreciation might be in the future. Buying a boat for £100k and selling it for £70 is a real loss in monetary terms. The only figure with an element of assumption is the 5% interest rate, but even if you use the current low rate of 3% the opportunity cost is £34k over 10 years.

The alternative you are talking about is actually your opportunity cost of NOT having the boat. In other words you are prepared to consume £93k of your wealth over 10 years so that you can own a boat, go places and enjoy yourself - rather than sitting at home counting your money! A decision people make every day and actually boats are one of the more economic ways of enjoying yourself. Just do the sums on a £100k Maserati!. Then you may understand why I own a Morgan - bought new and on current (and past) experience will hold its monetary value. Just think if I had spent my £25k on a Mazda RX8 in 2003 instead of the Morgan.

Do people really buy boats (and other things) with an eye to depreceation and this 'lost oppotunity' idea? That just sounds such a sad and depressing world. Probably run by accountants.

I raised the money for my boat by selling a car and some motorbikes that I had accumulated over the years. I paid cash. So far as I am concerned, that cash has now gone, written of, lost. I spent it and that's that. However, I do have a boat that gives me much pleasure. We shall be off long term cruising soon. I want to know of daily/weekly/monthly expences, not try to work out how much the money I'd bought the boat with would have made some 'investment fund manager' in bonus if I'd kept it as cash.

 

[bedouin]

Do people really buy boats (and other things) with an eye to depreceation and this 'lost oppotunity' idea? That just sounds such a sad and depressing world. Probably run by accountants.

Surely almost everyone does?

I might decide that I can't afford both a Ferrari and a new boat, so I buy a Mondeo instead (that is the "Lost Opportunity"). Or I may know that a £15,000 new Skoda will depreciate more than a £15,000 used BMW (depreciation).

 

[SvenglishTommy]

I'm really struggling with this as I dont have an income, but currently running at about £2000 a month. That's including boat bits and flights back and forth while I sort myself out, but at this rate the trip will be over before it started

 

[Tranona]

Do people really buy boats (and other things) with an eye to depreceation and this 'lost oppotunity' idea? That just sounds such a sad and depressing world. Probably run by accountants.

Yes. it is the fundamental construct which underpins the consumer society we live in (and without which you would not have a boat).

Life and what you do is all about choices - and making one choice means giving up something else. So if you choose to have a boat you give up some of your wealth that could be used for something else - either kept to earn interest or spent on another asset. Money is only the common means of assessing the value of the choice.

It is the very opposite of "sad and depressing" - rather it is the means to live your life in the way you want.

Your second paragraph is a perfect example of the construct in action. You have given up a number of other assets in return for your boat - opportunity cost. Nothing has gone, or is lost. Your wealth is just in another form. It may or may not lose its monetary value over time. If it does it is depreciation and your store of wealth in your boat has decreased. Actually many boats lose little or no value over time compared with some other assets. At some time in the future no doubt you will be faced with another choice when you give up sailing and turn your boat into another asset - either money or buying a retiremt property - or whatever your future preference is.

These are very robust concepts that explain (and predict) both individual and collective behaviour. They are so embedded that we are behaving according to them almost unconsciously. Some may be more calculating in the way they work through their decisions, but the basic process is the same for all.

 

[V1701]

Yes. it is the fundamental construct which underpins the consumer society we live in (and without which you would not have a boat).

Life and what you do is all about choices - and making one choice means giving up something else. So if you choose to have a boat you give up some of your wealth that could be used for something else - either kept to earn interest or spent on another asset. Money is only the common means of assessing the value of the choice.

It is the very opposite of "sad and depressing" - rather it is the means to live your life in the way you want.

Your second paragraph is a perfect example of the construct in action. You have given up a number of other assets in return for your boat - opportunity cost. Nothing has gone, or is lost. Your wealth is just in another form. It may or may not lose its monetary value over time. If it does it is depreciation and your store of wealth in your boat has decreased. Actually many boats lose little or no value over time compared with some other assets. At some time in the future no doubt you will be faced with another choice when you give up sailing and turn your boat into another asset - either money or buying a retiremt property - or whatever your future preference is.

These are very robust concepts that explain (and predict) both individual and collective behaviour. They are so embedded that we are behaving according to them almost unconsciously. Some may be more calculating in the way they work through their decisions, but the basic process is the same for all.

We seem to have two distinct camps here, I know which one I'm in, having chosen to have a boat and live on it and in doing that given up the opportunity to have a very large millstone around my neck to which I am a slave (aka a mortgage) or alternatively the opportunity to pay large swathes of my hard-earned cash to another person who owns more property than the one he lives in. I have obviously given up some money in return for my boat but wouldn't earn much interest on the purchase cost of it. I like cars and motorbikes but don't have them and could have a bigger, much more expensive boat if I wanted but I choose not to. I have as little to do with the consumer society that we live in as I reasonably can.

I do normally agree with what you say and consider that you offer good advice, and while much of the logic of your analysis probably stands up to proper scrutiny, to me it's horrible and applies more to the sort of boat owner who owns property, has a decent pension income, etc...

 

[blinder]

Average Monthly Costs

I’m going through the same thought process since my wife and I are just about to travel out to our boat in Spain and not come home for quite a while. Still maintaining a property foothold in the UK I can’t get a monthly average much lower than 1300 Euros.

If it can be significantly lowered I would like to know how.

See below for my list of liabilities:

Food
Entertainment / Socialising
Insurance
Gas
Telephone
Club Membership
Marinas - - Occasional summer stops and overwintering September to April
Haul-out and Launch
Antifouling
Fuel
Batteries
Impellor
Oil Filter
Primary Fuel Filter
Secondary Fuel Filter
Anodes
Oil
Life Raft Service
Flares
Fire Extinguisher Replenishment
Sail Replacement
Ropes Replacement
Electronics Repair and Replacement
Toilet Replacement
Outboard service
Travel Home - Occasional
Inland Travel - Car Hire / Train / Bus / Taxi etc
Emergency Contingent
Tax on Pensions and Income etc
Building Insurance for UK Property
Contents Insurance
Council Tax
Water Rates
Services Standing Charges
House Maintenance
Clothes

 

[rallyveteran]

We seem to have two distinct camps here, I know which one I'm in,

As you go on to say:

I have obviously given up some money in return for my boat but wouldn't earn much interest on the purchase cost of it.

It seems you are taking opportunity costs into account. Good for you. Then you say:

I ... could have a bigger, much more expensive boat if I wanted but I choose not to.

How do you make such a choice unless you take into account depreciation and loss of interest on your money?

I'll agree that there are two camps here. If you have a relatively low stream of guaranteed income, and have a choice as to whether to use your capital to buy a larger boat, it is natural that you would take into account the effect this would have on your income both while you own the boat and after you eventually sell it.

Alternatively if your guaranteed income, whether salary or pension, is more than enough to cover your outgoings, I can see that you might look upon capital sums as being available for spending regardless of the effect on your potential income.

 

[SvenglishTommy]

All this twadle about 'money means nothing to me' and 'I'm out of the capitalist consumer society' **** is just such *******s.

To be in a position where you have the wealth to own a boat and live on it without working puts you so far up in the economic scale it's just rediculous to pretend you're out there with the wind and need nothing more. Rubbish!!!!!!!

You may be out of it now but it still damn well funded, or is still funding, your self righteous lives. I'm sure there are a few people out there who built their own boat from a tree and live day to day by hunting, gathering and getting the odd bit of work here and there, but I guarantee they're not the ones sanctimoniously proclaming their self sufficiency on the YBW forums.

We are all extremely privileged and fortunate to be in the position that we are, and just because we rely on £4Ks worth of wind gens and solar panels for our electricity doesn't make us better than people who work all day to pay their nuclear sourced electricity bills.

 

[V1701]

As you go on to say:

It seems you are taking opportunity costs into account. Good for you. Then you say:

How do you make such a choice unless you take into account depreciation and loss of interest on your money?

I'll agree that there are two camps here. If you have a relatively low stream of guaranteed income, and have a choice as to whether to use your capital to buy a larger boat, it is natural that you would take into account the effect this would have on your income both while you own the boat and after you eventually sell it.

Alternatively if your guaranteed income, whether salary or pension, is more than enough to cover your outgoings, I can see that you might look upon capital sums as being available for spending regardless of the effect on your potential income.

I'm not going to get into an extended discussion about this...

 

[Tranona]

I do normally agree with what you say and consider that you offer good advice, and while much of the logic of your analysis probably stands up to proper scrutiny, to me it's horrible and applies more to the sort of boat owner who owns property, has a decent pension income, etc...

No, we are all in it together. Having more money/pensions/secure income etc only widens (or narrows!) the choices open to you. If you live in a money based consumer society the construct describes your behaviour.

The only question is the degree to which you engage in calculating your costs and benefits. Just as an example, there is a member of this forum currently spending a sum equal to half of my accumulated wealth on a boat without seemingly engaging with the financial implications at anywhere near the level that I would - not a criticism, just an illustration of different approaches to making similar decisions. Equally there is another poster spending a relatively small amount without perhaps really appreciating the enormity of the task he is undertaking.

However, each is making a choice that limits choice in other directions and taking on a commitment that is likely to reduce the monetary value of their wealth in the future. It will all fall apart for each of them if they do not have the resources (either through existing wealth or future income) to support their decision.

At the end of the day we all have a different view of risk and different value of the outcomes. To me, important though sailing is to me - has to be as I own two boats - my guiding principle is that the proportion of my net worth tied up in a boat should preferrably be no more than 10% and definitely no more than 20% - which is why I have a Bavaria and not the HR that I could afford if I broke that rule!

It doesn't take much imagination to see among members of this forum that my rule does not apply to many others! And good luck to them, that is the kind of choice open to them - just remember why you have the choice.

 

[Csail]

About 40 euro per day

 

[Slow_boat]

I didn't invest money in my boat. I spent money on my boat. It is money very well spent, so far as I am concerned.

Running/living costs are a different matter. I ache for the day (18 months) when I can at last live without a car, a mortgage etc etc.

 

[Slow_boat]

Blinder,

I'd be interestd how you got your expences so low; I visited my brother in Barcelona last summer with a view to taking his 41 footer down the coast for a fortnight. The whole coast is a lee shore, any anchorages marked on the chart are bouyed off to force you into marinas and after being charged 75 euro for one night in a bit of a dump which was shown as averagedly priced in the pilot, we turned round and went back to his berth in Barcelona. Apparantly Spain are trying to attract 'super-yachts' by pricing out mere mortals in sailing boats.

I shall certainly be getting past Spain and heading east as fast as possible when I go!

 

[Tranona]

I didn't invest money in my boat. I spent money on my boat. It is money very well spent, so far as I am concerned.

Running/living costs are a different matter. I ache for the day (18 months) when I can at last live without a car, a mortgage etc etc.

You have invested in your boat. Just that you are not getting a benefit in direct money terms. The definition of an investment is "current sacrifice for future benefit". Describes your boat and what you will get out of it perfectly! Your opportunity cost is what else you could do with the money, which might include leaving it in the bank.

So, your money is well spent because you clearly value the boat more highly than the money. At some point in the future that may well change and you will turn your boat back into money to invest in a different way (or more likely consume).