MiToS re-built/fit- versilcraft Mystery43

[BartW]

not much to comment on your question regarding the opposite helm position,
here are pics from our arrangement, for inspiration...

in the second pic, the lids were taken off for re-veneering and varnishing,
I use the space for the boat manuals and papers, and charts used to be in there.

there is a removeable bottom plate for acces to the extra storage space underneath

 

[jfm]

Vas, I'm not convinced about the angle you propose for the top surface port side. Every time you put something a bit mobile (pen, etc) there it will roll down out of reach. Even non mobile things might vibrate down the ski slope underway

 

[vas]

Interesting Vas. I think on most Flybridge boats, there is quite a lot of unused space on the opposite side from the helm. Ours has the helm on the RHS, and nothing on the LHS a other than the skylight for the shower cubicle in the heads. It is quite a long way to clean the screen on the LHS, even for a 6 footer! If you can find a way of utilising this space better on Mitos, then I think this is a bonus for you.

that's the plan Paul, due to the fact that most f/b layouts have a cabin under the opposite side of the lower helm, there's plenty of space wasted there. Worse I can remember is the layout of the Aermar 36 with masses of space on a smallish f/b totally inaccessible

these are the seats

Vas, pm me your email and I'll send drawings and pics

PM sent, emails received with thanks Bart. Just back from my voting trip to Athens and sorting things out. Sketches are very clear, many thanks, will come back with a couple of questions by mid week.

Vas, I'm not convinced about the angle you propose for the top surface port side. Every time you put something a bit mobile (pen, etc) there it will roll down out of reach. Even non mobile things might vibrate down the ski slope underway

you're absolutely right J., and that's exactly the reason I'm happy for it to be sloping so that my dear wife wont litter the place with bits and bobs
However, I remembered that I originally wanted to stick a smallish dishwasher somewhere there. Last time I tried I failed, so now that this slanted space is available I'll have another look for the smallest useable and reasonably priced d/w.

Only update is that I managed to remove most of the chrome plated brass securing levers out of the 10 portlights for re-plating. A bitch of a job, heatgun, impact driver, swearing, sweating all employed to get the job done 40pcs plated for 60euro, not bad, will pick them up in my next Athens trip.

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

and another update (desperately trying to pick up some speed...)

Lots more head scratching regarding the galley and ex-charttable layout.
Starting with the charttable, bad news is that all worktop dishwashers are 450mm high, my space can just accommodate 390mm, this is simply too high. So turning the problem around, I brought the oven back in MiToS and test fitted it on the charttable next to the gas hob. Size is just fine, so I'll keep it there, designing the rest around it. Layout should look like this:

which follows this idea moreorless:

Since the oven cabinet will have a flat top, I decided to follow JFMs suggestion and do the next lower height piece flat as well. I'll keep a slanted strip by the window to follow the frame slope.
Everything seems to fit nicely except for the puzzling detail where the slope of the side window frame meets the main windscreen frames (which are 50mm at least higher as can be seen on the next pic)
Still haven't sorted it, will have to cut the flat dash piece a bit short on the side and design a proper detail.
The top of the middle piece will lift open towards the bow giving access to all the space under it and all the way forward to the windscreen. Ergonomics are good, so I'm keeping that.
The big drawer in the middle will be approx. 720X600X320 (WxDxH), pretty big and will be organized mainly for storing plates of various sorts. Not worried atm, it's easy to remove take it to the workshop and make whatever slots/forms I want. Could even lasercut a perspex sheet spaced above the bottom to hold things in place (although tbh just stacking plates seems to work just fine!)

Currently space looks like this with the oven in place:

The wrap around the oven all the way to the dash will be iroko. Once design is finalized (that is sorting out the dash/side window detail and cutting the dash to size), George will pickup and do the work, noway I can currently work on such a task I'm afraid...

Now, moving to the bulkhead galley (do you actually call an "external wall" in bldg. speak a bulkhead???) there's space wasted between the lining and the external ply construction just over the sink. Average depth is 120mm, width 350mm and height (sloping though) reaching a max of 440mm. These dimensions are enough to built a decent sized cabinet for glasses and various bits and bobs. Whole area is slanted and tapered, a bitch to measure, visualize and even worse to model. So went for the mocking approach, cut a smaller than anticipated hole and started measuring.

Check the following pics and I'll explain two approaches I'm working on.

without the panel:

panel in place:

measuring the hole:

back in place with the hole and a mock bottom (needs another 50mm extension outwards):

Now, the two approaches are:

A. create this grey lacquered box coming out the black upholstered panel. Last pics show exactly size and placement. Front door folds down, effectively flat 200mm aprox over the worksurface.

B. grey lacquered box (lid could actually be upholstered!) is full width, think like "cutting" the lining panel into three, top (with the round aircon inlet hole) and lower piece remain in place, middle part "shifts" inside, becomes vertical and rotates 20deg (angle similar to the proposed small box shown in the last three pics, but full width)
seen in the next sketch (bit iffy and out of proportions...)

A is slightly easier to implement, B is producing nasty detailing that I have to workout. Will mock the two cabinet doors and decide on the spot.
Ah, the lacquered ledge over the sink with the three oval holes was for carrying a two piece "lid" for the galley furniture. Cannot be bothered, but I do remember and will line the upholstered and iroko clad pieces with ss sheeting (seen here in the side towards the oven). I'll also fit an iroko strip in front of the ledge, maybe 80mm high to store (and keep in place) herbs and other bits that the wife finds important.


cheers

V.

 

[thunderbird]

Watch out for white or shiny surfaces they make reflections in the front window due to the angle of the windows.
I have replaced the complete white front deskboard with a dark mat black skai

see http://www.navis.be/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1172&start=740
the bottom 3 pictures are from the replacing proces, the white top board is now mat black

Best regards,
Patrick

 

[vas]

Watch out for white or shiny surfaces they make reflections in the front window due to the angle of the windows.
I have replaced the complete white front deskboard with a dark mat black skai

see http://www.navis.be/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1172&start=740
the bottom 3 pictures are from the replacing proces, the white top board is now mat black

Best regards,
Patrick

thanks Patrick, got to spend a few hours to update on what you've done since the last time I read your thread (I think that was before last summer!)

yes, "dash" was upholstered in a black vinyl/leatherette and that's what I'm using on helm/galley/salon now. "Downstairs" I've used brighter colours and the kids love them but not around the helm, would be impossible to see!

hopefully by the w/e I'll have finalised the design.

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

good morning,

decided to go for option B (as per post #1104) regarding the cabinet above the sink. Mocked the cabinet door last night, lots of head scratching, the following pics show what I'm planning to do. Effectively will keep the existing panel (with a slightly larger hole) as is, upholster it and fit it back in place. Cabinet will be customized and will be fitted on the spot. Cabinet door will be larger extending from the galley-salon bulkhead (where the hinges will be) all the way to the side windows, overlapping the edge of the existing panel by approx. 35mm. This ledge will be the handle to open the cabinet door

and the overview of the galley furniture back drop with the cabinet door and the flame/heat protection for the hobs. The aircon outlet will probably have to move elsewhere (to the right of the cabinet most likely) as the 75mm dia duct "steals" space off the cabinet:

Today's task is to decide the finer details with George who's going to have to construct the cabinet and test fit it before I upholster and bolt everything in place.

On the opposite side (lower helm) things are in a complete mess (and very dusty) Managed to clear up things yesterday and even more head scratching got me nowhere.
Unless I rip the thing apart and redesign it from scratch (which I'm NOT prepared to do atm!) I have some serious issues fitting the Garmin GPSMAP 3006C I bought so that I can reach it without having to bend over and have my chest over the wheel! Also need to find a spot for the last GMI10 that JFM kindly donated, plus keep the similarly sized A/P controller, plus find a decent spot for the three bilge pump compartments auto/manual switches. Easier said than done, but that's not something new in this project

Two possible places for the 260X170mm device are:

A. between the engine controls
B. strbrd side of the strbrd control


Option A will be tested by lunchtime, will force me bring the engines' dash further away from the helm so that the chartplotter wont cover the lower gauges. Further, I'll have to get a bracket for it and have it mounted free standing (which I hate!)

Option B means some surgery on the side panel which had already a piece chopped off to accommodate the new el.panel. Not confident it will fit tbh and not particularly ergonomic.

Ideally I should remove all the polygonal in section piece where the engine controls and wheel live, remodel it so that the wheel comes 50mm down, slope changes and extends so that engine controls and chartplotter fit on the same plane, making sure that this plane doesn't overcome the portside bulkhead height (there's a preshaped, aluminum U shaped section following the bulkhead profile and there's no f way I can modify that
Slighly easier solution is to shift the wheel in a vertical position, lowering it at the same time (as per Alf's Navigator iirc) and use the existing slanted space for the engine controls and chart plotter, nicely visible and within grasp. Problem is that vertical helm wheels are not particularly ergonomic (imho) and have a trawler look to them which I'm not convinced I want. Realistically only some night passages will be done from lower helm but still seems stupid to modify a perfectly ergonomic helm position to a mediocre one just to fit the chartplotter. Which check it again today.


Third project is the portlight rebuilt (found a small bird in MiToS yesterday, I guess came to get some protection from the cold) all were brought back in the garage two weeks ago to disassemble and get the fixed part painted by Alekos in the same charcoal grey as following various attempts at cleaning, polishing et al the pitting in some windows is just too much. After a lot of effort I only managed to remove one opening glass frame (out of 10) and another blanking plate (sort of aluminum curtain ) that uses the same ss hollow 4mm pivot. Couldn't spend any more time on that, removed all the glass panes, some where already leaking and were easily removed with a blade, in some others the almost 40yo silicone was still going strong, well impressed! 50euro later I have all ten portlights in pieces back home:

(OK, if anyone's sad enough to count, yes, they're only 9, tenth had a 1eurocent bit missing on the outer edge and got it to the welder to fill it in)

and the lid which only needs polishing:

Another minor task will be to get a uv tint film on the 10 pieces of security glass (after a thorough clean!) but I'll probably leave that to the "experts" not so keen on having lots of bubbles everywhere...

Now I just need to clean with a conical sand tool the countersunk cone so that I wont have paint chipping when the portlights are fitted back in place next month.
Should really find ss bolts with rubber/silicone insets to avoid electrolysis but don't know if such a thing exists or I'm talking bull. I can easily go one size down on the screws or better enlarge the hole on the portlight for that. Any ideas?

cheers

V.

 

[rafiki_]

Vas, sorry, haven't got anything sensible to add on the port lights, bit with your lower helm plotter, given it will be occasional use, could you hinge the installation so it sits flat when you don't need it, but props up when you do? The bilge pump switches could be placed on the port side of the console, as they should be occasional use too?
I'm not sure I have seen SS screws with insulating washers, but others will know more.

 

[vas]

Vas, sorry, haven't got anything sensible to add on the port lights, bit with your lower helm plotter, given it will be occasional use, could you hinge the installation so it sits flat when you don't need it, but props up when you do? The bilge pump switches could be placed on the port side of the console, as they should be occasional use too?
I'm not sure I have seen SS screws with insulating washers, but others will know more.

Paul,

quite a few things need to fit down there, a full list follows. I'm currently in Athens and will try to source sealed ss screws I think I've seen something similar used in corrugated metal roofing (only not countersunk) will check.

OK, after the first decent working w/e for the new year, I managed to form the layout of the lower helm in a way that I like and is quite ergonomic, albeit very deconstructive but it somehow fits the rest of the layout by not canceling the existing 70ies lines. I have to admit that on Sat night I was rather disappointed, but managed to pull it out at the end (if that's the right expression)

So, Option A GPSMAP between the two engine controls is completely out of the question, doesn't bleeding fit! Further even if I could move the levers outwards by 40mm I wouldn't be able to pull them out and fwd to rev the engine or check the cabling without engaging the gearbox (feature of the sticks)

Option B was originally a dead end, not enough clearance, too much ducking and cabling inside, odd relation with the original side lining panel (similarly shaped and organized to the port side where the galley is)

Following some drastic rerouting of cables, I managed to get the necessary space to fit the Garmin. Problem now was the shape and slope of this panel that wasn't really blending properly with the rest of the dash.

Next morning came up with the idea of overlapping this new panel with the existing wheel polygonal shaped in cross section one, and all magically fitted together nicely. Now the layout has a properly oriented (both in plan and section) panel so that you just look to stbrd and have all the necessary bits within right hand's reach.
The sloping panel tapers up to the side window level and needs another triangular shaped one to "close" the shape towards the bow with clean visibility from the mid of the helm area and galley.

Adding the chopped original side panel, it now looks much clearer and I think will work just fine. Need to further reroute the vertical duct to the side of the new el.panel leaving space for the frame that I have to built for these removable panels.

in the next pic you can spot the gen panel on the left and if you're careful the engine key/stop assembly tangled with the cables that need shifting aft.

These two panels will accommodate the following sets of controls/gauges/instruments:

SET_A (visible from helm position)
GPSMAP 3006C
100mm square CETREK autopilot control (doubles as rudder angle gauge)
Bow thruster control
trim tabs
engine key/stop assembly

[GMI10
navlights
anchor light
compass/dash lighting
horn
windlass switch (with a question mark as I've got an AutoAnchor 500 gauge -again around 100X100mm - that needs installing most likely at the lower helm) ]

SET_B (not really necessary accessible/viewable from helm seat)
AutoAnchor ?
Gen control (big bugger 80X180mm approx. with three soft buttons and 6indicator lights)
3Xbilge pump controls

Initial tests suggest that I get the two sets into three+ and mix and match in order to fit them in an appealing way and not jam them ontop of eachother.

So Main dash could be:

GPSMAP
CETREK autopilot
Bow thruster
trim tabs
horn

forward triangular dash (useable when at anchor):
Mase gen control
autoanchor gauge


old reduced side panel (or lower fixed part under it in recess to give access and visibility to the GPSMAP):
GMI10 (mainly as a gauge for tank levels and anchor drag)
bilge pump controls
set of switches
engine key/off controls

ah, forgot the vhf handset as well.

Another tiny problem is that the new layout cancels the panel with the wipers controllers I've done a couple of years ago. Simply wont fit! So I should really shift them as well up to the old side panel.
A problem with moving switches there is that switches wont mount directly on 15mm foam padded and lined ply (would fck up the lining anyway even if they could!) so you have to employ a 2-3mm galvanized sheet, make the necessary holes, line it with leatherette, then fit the switches, key, stop, wipers which then bolt behind the panel after it's lined. A bitch of a job, can look very cool if done properly and the "holes" are designed properly but doing tight radius lining is not extremely easy even after having lined almost 50sqm of leatherette!
Furthermore, if you want to add a few more, you're buggered as you have to remove the panel, hold it in mid air while you unbolt the metal panels, remove the upholstery, modify the holes, epoxy, short them out, re foam and re line before refiting. Tiring even to describe the process... On the plus is that you don't have to remove all the wiring off the switches

Very much still work in progress and once the snowing stops and temps rise a bit I'll mock the panels from single pieces and not the existing patchwork for proper testing.

cheers

V.

 

[jfm]

I like what you're doing there Vas. That angled panel with the Garmin screen looks a very neat solution. Plus, if ever you change the nav hardware or change your mind, you can easily make a new panel there with new cut outs. Good going

What are your plans for steering wheel? Do you want to refurb and keep it as part of the character of the boat or are you interested in something else? Point behind my Q is I have just changed wheels so am happy to send you a mint black leather Isotta foc - I still have your address I think. But I fully appreciate you may want to keep the original for authenticity; mine is arguably "wrong", but all a matter of opinion of course. Also mine might have 40mm more dish depth than yours which could be a good or a bad thing re hitting helmsman's knees

 

[MarieK]

Vas - are you going to keep the current seat/positioning? It looks somewhat tight as JFM has eluded to?

Also I cant remember what is overhead at the helm position, any opportunity to mount some of the lesser used instruments up there? Like in the pic below

 

[vas]

I like what you're doing there Vas. That angled panel with the Garmin screen looks a very neat solution. Plus, if ever you change the nav hardware or change your mind, you can easily make a new panel there with new cut outs. Good going

What are your plans for steering wheel? Do you want to refurb and keep it as part of the character of the boat or are you interested in something else? Point behind my Q is I have just changed wheels so am happy to send you a mint black leather Isotta foc - I still have your address I think. But I fully appreciate you may want to keep the original for authenticity; mine is arguably "wrong", but all a matter of opinion of course. Also mine might have 40mm more dish depth than yours which could be a good or a bad thing re hitting helmsman's knees

Glad you like the new layout John, indeed it's a matter of redoing a panel if (or rather when!) I decide to go for a more modern plotter
Regarding the wheel, your guess is right, I'm definitely keeping both wheels (they are identical and I believe original, MystereMarcus and Pete1987 could confirm?) They just need a good polish and clean. So appreciate your offer but wont work, thanks.
Actually I'm afraid that although I'd be better off (kneewise) with your wheel I'd have to relocate the engine controls as they would foul the wheel on reverse (admittedly more than half throttle which I don't think is something you do often )

Vas - are you going to keep the current seat/positioning? It looks somewhat tight as JFM has eluded to?

Also I cant remember what is overhead at the helm position, any opportunity to mount some of the lesser used instruments up there? Like in the pic below

It is tight and the actual seat itself is rather deep, so I'm chopping 40-50mm off its length/depth and reupholstering it (don't expect me to keep this fake croc there, do you?
Due to the arrangement of the helm area, and the gently sloping, there's no easy way of keeping bits up there unless I decide to do some localized mods on the ceiling lined slabs which tbh I'm not prepared to do atm. Much more keen to utilize the panel on the stbrd side as items placed there will be visible from the galley area, or as you go up and down the steps to the cabins. It's a matter of choosing what goes where and designing properly the cuts and overall layout. Ceiling would need patching a whole load of cables to get them up there.
OK, I have to admit that in the overall scale of mods on MiToS that's peanuts, but I should really draw a line somewhere every now and again else I'd still be in the heads layout

cheers

V.

 

[MystereMarcus]

Regarding the wheel, your guess is right, I'm definitely keeping both wheels (they are identical and I believe original, MystereMarcus and Pete1987 could confirm?)

Vas,
Love how the boat is coming on. I agree with you the wheel(s) look original to me. This picture is taken from the JCl brochure and looks very similar:


Strangely mine has a different wheel that I've put down to being produced later:

 

[vas]

Thanks MystereMarcus!

yes my wheels are probably identical to the pics.

Back to helm rebuilt then, annoying as it is to drop from 60h a week (at least!) to 0 per week for a couple of months and now struggling to achieve 6h/w progress is painfully slow.

Over the w/e I managed to reroute all cabling down there to behind the new el/panel and managed to carefully bend and reroute the copper pipes for the steering fluid. Actually there was a panic moment when I noticed that there was fluid leaking from the top of the notoriously difficult to access control box deep down under the plotter spot, but I hopefully managed to undo the nut and carefully redo them and the leak stopped.

After a lot of measuring and calculating, I cut a new mock for the dash panel which took me over 2h to sort out and get the angle right. Once fitted, cut the holes for the garmin, the cetrek autopilot and bolted the vhf. Panel now looks well organized both aesthetically and ergonomically, so well pleased! Note to the right of the cetrek there are three toggles sketched in pencil; top is possibly the bow thruster control (alternatively could put it on top of the VHF and this will be then the horn) and under it the two trim tabs toggles (ok, scrapped the intelligent controls and NMEA2K gauges for them).
Further on top of the cetrek there are another three toggles for nav lights, anchor lights and lower helm lighting (+ compass light)

More head scratching regarding the way the rest of the kit fits in place (main bits are the engine keys/stop assembly the wipers (pretty bulky!) the genny panel and the bleeding bilge pump controllers.

Winning solution (at least till next time i'm there!) is to create a 2mm sheet panel coming vertically off the plotter panel towards the el/panel. This way I have a large enough (and deep enough) area to mount the wipers (lower) and the engine start/stop (above it) in a permanently mounted and accessible panel. This will double as support for the flat horizontal panel as well as the plotter stbrd side support.

Regarding the geny panel, main candidate is the lacquered (as per the similar galley cabinet) "door" to the new el/panel. This will attempt to cover with a trapezoidal shaped panel hang vertically the differences between all the odd shapes and slopes around there. Top triangular ending is ideal to mount the panel. More to come on that over my next visit where I'll cut the mock door and try it out. Difficult to describe in writing, but looks quite interesting and will be definitely easily accessible from everyone.

typically i'm yet again stuck with the 3X bilge control panels, the autoanchor control panel AND the fourth GMI10.

Autoanchor I'm not yet convinced I should have it down there, but "upstairs" I'm after a much "cleaner" and minimal look so this will mess up the space.
GMI10 will give supportive info to the plotter and will be more useful at anchor (as per the GMI10 on the bow cabin) for anchor drag, depth, etc. One option would be to disconnect it from the helm and fit it around the salon, possibly over the stereo on the sofa. Still under consideration.
bilge controls are still undecided!

On the portlights front, I got one back from the welder. Job done, hole disappeared. Went through all 10 portlights mounting holes (some of them badly pitted, some less so) with a 8mm drill bit to clean up the mess and I need to get them through a soft wirebrush to remove all old salt deposits and clean them before dropping them to Alekos for painting.

Overall, it's slowly progressing in the right direction (me thinks at least!) and I'll try to manage a few more hours a week

cheers

V.

 

[MarieK]

Good to see some progress Vas.

I was thinking.... given your current time constraints and the few shorts month until the start of the new season, would you be in a position to avail of some assistance to get things finished? Would a crack team of energetic forumites descending on Volos for 4-5 days be a help or a hindrance, given of course they had some relevant skills to offer ;-) ?

I for one have really enjoyed this post over the last few years and would be happy to pay for a flight and come to give you a hand. If there were a few more like minded people who had a bit of time to spare it could be a great week with a bit of forum camaraderie and a worthwhile goal at the end.

 

[Biggusstickus]

Over the last few days I have read this thread from the start to finish, and what a monumental effort!! What started as a hopeful 6 month project has now been ongoing for 3 years now and probably another 6 months left to go. Forrest Gump would be so proud of this never give up attitude. I for one would never of taken it on (too much commitment for this black duck). Well done and keep it going, almost there now.

Ps I agree with you that the colours are just that little bit off. Maybe continue the grey hull colour up top might look better next time you paint.

 

[jfm]

Vas, i cant find your trim tab thread but here is a pic of what I meant about mechanical indicators, taken from a Pershing 56, currently in the yard beside my boat. The cable enters the hull above w/line, and you can have a long cable driving a dashboard mechanical gauge, or a short cable driving a rheostat inside the boat (then just reprint the face card of a voltmeter for the dashboard) or even a pair of microswitches/dashboard LEDs to confirm just full up/down

 

[MapisM]

Absolutely +1 in supporting mechanical indicators.
I had them for both the outdrive and the tabs in my Fountain (pics below), and I can confirm that I've yet to see any electronic gauge whose accuracy and reliability can hold a candle to them.
In fact, it's no coincidence that you wouldn't find anything else in boats where the tabs gauges are really important - namely, fast sportboats - and that the Mercury K-planes, as you can see in the last pic, have a built-in cable going directly through the plate attached to the transom.

 

[jfm]

Thanks MapisM. Scuse my ignorance but:

1. In the first pic the two sliders seem to be installed "against" each other. When you want bow lift the drive indicator needs to be low whereas the tabs indicator needs to be high. Is there some reason for doing it this way?

2. In the last pic, why is the K plane surface set ~10mm higher than the hull surface? I'd expect to see them level.

 

[vas]

Thanks MapisM. Scuse my ignorance but:

1. In the first pic the two sliders seem to be installed "against" each other. When you want bow lift the drive indicator needs to be low whereas the tabs indicator needs to be high. Is there some reason for doing it this way?

maybe because of the way the cables are set?

short cable on the engine means bow down, whereas on the tabs means bow high?

2. In the last pic, why is the K plane surface set ~10mm higher than the hull surface? I'd expect to see them level.

I was going to ask that as well...

sorry for not replying, stuck with a truckload of work (literally) and struggling to match half a dozen deadlines (this week...)
Currently in Athens, if I manage I'll post a short update on helm design with maybe a couple of Qs more.

BTW, running 6 or 7m cables from the transom to lower helm isn't at all appealing!

cheers

V.