Med Sailors - Do you carry a liferaft ?

[RupertW]

The right answer is to carry a liferaft.

We would never follow your logic in the real world, rather than the yottie one. Assiming that money is finite a sensible person looks at the likely hazards and chooses spend on the areas which are most likely to reduce risk to yacht and to crew.

By any logical assessment anything which reduces the chances of you needing a liferaft is far more valuable than the liferaft which is questionable on successful deployment and use in anything but very calm conditions. If you really want to spend on emergency equipment then as another thread stated the chances are that you would reduce risk of death far more by buying a defibrillator than a liferaft.

Ships have many things that yachts don't, commercial yachts are regulated by people who want to count and tick things off, so I don't see how they apply to an owners requirement to use their budget to achieve the safest sailing.

 

[capnsensible]

commercial yachts are regulated by people who want to count and tick things off.

I would be interested to know how you draw that conclusion.

 

[RupertW]

A lot of experience of regulators

Those who can, do
Those who can't, teach
Those who count, regulate

 

[capnsensible]

A lot of experience of regulators

Those who can, do
Those who can't, teach
Those who count, regulate

That is though, with respect, incorrect.

People who do, gain the requisite knowledge and skills to be assessed fit to pass their knowledge on.

Regulatory bodies such as the MCA have a vast experience within their staff to make the correct risk assessments for commercial vessels. These have been drawn up into a code of practice to protect all who go to sea on a commercial vessel. I fail to see how that equates with the somewhat naïve remark 'regulators want to count and tick things off'.

Of course you may be mistaking a regulator for a qualified inspector who checks the rules are in place and enforced, like anywhere else in the 'real world'. Like hospitals!!

Having been an operator from the time of the Marchioness disaster, which effectively bought the early coding, with lots of interpretation into being, I too have lots of experience of regulators, inspectors and the differences between them.

At the end of it, with over 127 000 miles logged on saily boats and motor boats, complete with liferafts etc, I am confident to stand on with my opinion that its plain bonkers to not carry one.

CS

 

[RupertW]

That is though, with respect, incorrect.


At the end of it, with over 127 000 miles logged on saily boats and motor boats, complete with liferafts etc, I am confident to stand on with my opinion that its plain bonkers to not carry one.

CS

Ok - you have vastly more experience in the industry and have sailed far more miles than i ever have or will, so could I ask how liferafts performed when you needed to use one to save your life? Would any other purchase have prevented the need for use of the raft?

 

[capnsensible]

Ok - you have vastly more experience in the industry and have sailed far more miles than i ever have or will, so could I ask how liferafts performed when you needed to use one to save your life? Would any other purchase have prevented the need for use of the raft?

Certainly. Up to date. I have never need a liferaft. See post 29 by Andy and Lynne however. Have been involved in a fair bit of sea survival training though.

Close calls, now that's another thing.

On route to the Canaries, I was skippering a yacht that had a hull valve failure in the middle of an unforecast stor. Was able to sort it out and make our way back to Cadiz. Was close.

In a storm off the Azores on my boat with my wife( ok, her boat, my engine) we found a shroud stranding but managed to bridge across it with pare rigging wire and bulldog grips. Potentially a boat wrecker.

Two days out from Antigua, delivering a yacht to Lanzarote, found big seas had caused a crack in the hull. About turn!

I could go on but our friend the sea has many unexpected ways to bite yo ass. That's too late to wish you had done the right thing!

Oh, these things always happen at 0200 so have stacks of torches...

Anyway, I found out stacks in the early days just by chatting to people who had 'done it' and was, and still am' prepared to take advice.

Im very lucky to go sailing most weeks, any yacht Im on gets a safety check before II go, I owe it to the crew!

All the usual stuff, its not onerous. LJ's and liferavt in date, extinguishers, radio, hand held , pyros, bilge pumps, bolt croppers, spare vhf aeriel, first aid kit, wooden bungs, tools, engine spares. Takes 10 mins. Not a total list, but close.

For offshore, sail tape, jb weld (had several exhaust blow outs), rigging wire, etc.

Last but not least, rent an Iridium phone!

Hope this answers you questions

CS

 

[capnsensible]

I should say here that my great mentor was Gavin Maclaren, of Atlantic Pilot fame (before Anne Hammick took over).

I will always be grateful for the time he spent answering my continuous questions!

 

[chinita]

Certainly. Up to date. I have never need a liferaft. See post 29 by Andy and Lynne however. Have been involved in a fair bit of sea survival training though.

Close calls, now that's another thing.

On route to the Canaries, I was skippering a yacht that had a hull valve failure in the middle of an unforecast stor. Was able to sort it out and make our way back to Cadiz. Was close.

In a storm off the Azores on my boat with my wife( ok, her boat, my engine) we found a shroud stranding but managed to bridge across it with pare rigging wire and bulldog grips. Potentially a boat wrecker.

Two days out from Antigua, delivering a yacht to Lanzarote, found big seas had caused a crack in the hull. About turn!

I could go on but our friend the sea has many unexpected ways to bite yo ass. That's too late to wish you had done the right thing!

Oh, these things always happen at 0200 so have stacks of torches...

Anyway, I found out stacks in the early days just by chatting to people who had 'done it' and was, and still am' prepared to take advice.

Im very lucky to go sailing most weeks, any yacht Im on gets a safety check before II go, I owe it to the crew!

All the usual stuff, its not onerous. LJ's and liferavt in date, extinguishers, radio, hand held , pyros, bilge pumps, bolt croppers, spare vhf aeriel, first aid kit, wooden bungs, tools, engine spares. Takes 10 mins. Not a total list, but close.

For offshore, sail tape, jb weld (had several exhaust blow outs), rigging wire, etc.

Last but not least, rent an Iridium phone!

Hope this answers you questions

CS

So, in summary. After 127,000 miles I have not needed a liferaft.

 

[Tranona]

Certainly. Up to date. I have never need a liferaft. See post 29 by Andy and Lynne however. Have been involved in a fair bit of sea survival training though.

Close calls, now that's another thing.

On route to the Canaries, I was skippering a yacht that had a hull valve failure in the middle of an unforecast stor. Was able to sort it out and make our way back to Cadiz. Was close.

In a storm off the Azores on my boat with my wife( ok, her boat, my engine) we found a shroud stranding but managed to bridge across it with pare rigging wire and bulldog grips. Potentially a boat wrecker.

Two days out from Antigua, delivering a yacht to Lanzarote, found big seas had caused a crack in the hull. About turn!

I could go on but our friend the sea has many unexpected ways to bite yo ass. That's too late to wish you had done the right thing!

Oh, these things always happen at 0200 so have stacks of torches...

Anyway, I found out stacks in the early days just by chatting to people who had 'done it' and was, and still am' prepared to take advice.

Im very lucky to go sailing most weeks, any yacht Im on gets a safety check before II go, I owe it to the crew!

All the usual stuff, its not onerous. LJ's and liferavt in date, extinguishers, radio, hand held , pyros, bilge pumps, bolt croppers, spare vhf aeriel, first aid kit, wooden bungs, tools, engine spares. Takes 10 mins. Not a total list, but close.

For offshore, sail tape, jb weld (had several exhaust blow outs), rigging wire, etc.

Last but not least, rent an Iridium phone!

Hope this answers you questions

CS

How does that relate to drifting around the Ionian in the summer?

Do not disagree with you (or tcm) about the need to be prepared if you are crossing oceans and running risks of extreme weather or structural failures.

However you have to put the original question in context when carrying out your risk assessment and choosing your equipment. To just say "you have to fit a liferaft" is naive without considering the context.

 

[RupertW]

So, I have learnt a useful list of equipment to help me out of trouble - have most of it but must finally buy bolt croppers (have multiple hacksaws after a YBW test showed they were much quicker and more effective than bolt croppers but still, no harm and small price), and had not heard of JB weld so will check this out. Anything which can help make the boat or crew safer in all but the most unlikely circumstances makes sense to me. I'd add a laser flare to the list as they appear to be far longer lasting and far less likely to injure than pyros even if the box tickers haven't coded them yet.

And my risk assessment of the use of a liferaft is also confirmed - very very low likelihood of me needing it in my lifetime and plenty of evidence out there that the use is both dangerous and unstable, including my own second hand experience of my first sailing instructor who died along with another crew member when transferring to a liferaft in heavy seas whilst the yacht itself was found still floating the next day.

 

[capnsensible]

So, in summary. After 127,000 miles I have not needed a liferaft.

I am fully prepared for mile 127 001. Are you???

 

[capnsensible]

How does that relate to drifting around the Ionian in the summer?

Do not disagree with you (or tcm) about the need to be prepared if you are crossing oceans and running risks of extreme weather or structural failures.

However you have to put the original question in context when carrying out your risk assessment and choosing your equipment. To just say "you have to fit a liferaft" is naive without considering the context.

Again, I have mentioned several times that yachts can founder or catch fire anywhere. You don't need to be far from land or in bad weather. tcm has it spot on.

 

[capnsensible]

And my risk assessment of the use of a liferaft is also confirmed - very very low likelihood of me needing it in my lifetime and plenty of evidence out there that the use is both dangerous and unstable, including my own second hand experience of my first sailing instructor who died along with another crew member when transferring to a liferaft in heavy seas whilst the yacht itself was found still floating the next day.

A sad story and sorry to hear it.

To understand the need and effectiveness of liferafts and lifesaving equipment it is clearly necessary to get trained. I certainly have dome so, lots.

I sincerely hope you do never need a liferaft in your lifetime. I certainly hope I never do.

Difference is, it would appear, sailors like myself will be fully prepared. Others wont be......

 

[RupertW]

A sad story and sorry to hear it.

To understand the need and effectiveness of liferafts and lifesaving equipment it is clearly necessary to get trained. I certainly have dome so, lots.

I sincerely hope you do never need a liferaft in your lifetime. I certainly hope I never do.

Difference is, it would appear, sailors like myself will be fully prepared. Others wont be......

All fair comments even if we come to different conclusions - I have done sea survival training which helped me form my opinion on liferafts, and I can't see how anyone can be fully prepared for every eventuality - we all have to make informed choices on potential risks and their mitigation.

 

[capnsensible]

All fair comments even if we come to different conclusions - I have done sea survival training which helped me form my opinion on liferafts, and I can't see how anyone can be fully prepared for every eventuality - we all have to make informed choices on potential risks and their mitigation.

Indeed. But the two situations of fire or foundering can be mitigated by simply carrying a liferaft!

Anyone who takes others on their boat, whether commercially or not has a duty of care to their crew. As has been explained to me by MCA enforcement, they have juristriction over all UK skippers..... I was a bit surprised, but true nevertheless.

As tcm points out, do you want to be the guy in the dock? No.

Whenever these safetry threads come up, there are always the 'it will never happen to me' club out in force, trying to justify safety on the cheap. Again, I hope it never comes back to haunt them.

Always leave yourself an escape route........

 

[Tranona]

Again, I have mentioned several times that yachts can founder or catch fire anywhere. You don't need to be far from land or in bad weather. tcm has it spot on.

They can, but you will be hard pressed to find many that have. Fire at sea is very rare. Communications and rescue services are generally good close to shore in areas of high habitation so situations that might develop into a foundering and need for a liferaft are resolved more readily.

Of course this changes the more extreme the conditions you are sailing in and the further you go away from habitable land and associated rescue services.

So a sensible strategy is first avoidance of situations where the chance of foundering is greater, ensure that you have a means of communication with others and then consider what equipment you need to deal with what is left. Founderings in coastal waters around Europe are very rare. The further you go away, the more you sail, the poorer the communications, the greater the risk and you adjust your equipment strategy accordingly.

 

[capnsensible]

They can, but you will be hard pressed to find many that have. Fire at sea is very rare. Communications and rescue services are generally good close to shore in areas of high habitation so situations that might develop into a foundering and need for a liferaft are resolved more readily.

Of course this changes the more extreme the conditions you are sailing in and the further you go away from habitable land and associated rescue services.

So a sensible strategy is first avoidance of situations where the chance of foundering is greater, ensure that you have a means of communication with others and then consider what equipment you need to deal with what is left. Founderings in coastal waters around Europe are very rare. The further you go away, the more you sail, the poorer the communications, the greater the risk and you adjust your equipment strategy accordingly.

It is clear that those who don't want to be convinced wont be. Fair enough.

Its wrong though to say these things don't happen, remember it only has to happen to you once.

I refer again to Andy and Lynns earlier post, the tragic loss of my friend John when his yacht caught fire last week (thread on Scuttlebutt) and last years story of the yacht that caught fire in Grenada.

Be prepared.

 

[OldBawley]

How big is the chance that while on board a fire will develop that is uncontrollable ?

I had fire on board three times. Once on a town quay, twice under way. I could stop all three of them even without the use of the fire extinguisher. ( would have ruined the boat )

Are there known cases of a fire going out of hand at open sea?

I had a short in the power cord of a flat screen TV whilst sailing. Saw smoke coming out of the cabin, cable was glowing and smoking, just ripped the cable off and threw it into the cockpit.

I know of one case, fire and total loss of the yacht. Everyone involved was sure the fire was started deliberate to make an insurance claim. In this case, ( Mobo on the Schelde ) the guy just stepped into his dingy and motored away.

 

[RupertW]

It is clear that those who don't want to be convinced wont be. Fair enough.

Its wrong though to say these things don't happen, remember it only has to happen to you once.

I refer again to Andy and Lynns earlier post, the tragic loss of my friend John when his yacht caught fire last week (thread on Scuttlebutt) and last years story of the yacht that caught fire in Grenada.

Be prepared.

I'm only not convinced because I don't understand the logic of your position. I don't have protection on my boat for being hit by an aeroplane, swallowed by a whale, or being shot by my wife. I think at least the first two of those are utterly catastrophic but highly unlikely. So is severe fire and sudden foundering and your personal vast experience bears that out as you have suffered neither.

A blown up rib on the foredeck (or being towed) will do the job in calm weather, and in bad weather the risk of leaving the boat for a liferaft is real. So it's a risk with a tiny tiny chance of happening and an expensive and potentially unreliable solution.

But because its on a list of required safety equipment and you've invested a lot of time being trained in use if it, you are convinced its essential to any boat anywhere. I will always listen to evidence but I just don't see any being put forward.

When I win the lottery I will buy another liferaft - the odds must balance out.

 

[capnsensible]

Well, we go on round in circles. All the points you raise have been addressed. Its up to you of course how you interpret them.

At least you admit if you had the money you would buy a liferaft, surely that acknowledges its the right thing to do.

Try a PM to Andy and Lynn for his SR experiences.

I am at a loss as how to consider that just because Ive not used one so far, I might not need one tomorrow. But there we are. Circle complete I think....