Med Sailors - Do you carry a liferaft ?

[Steve C Cronin]

This is your man in Corfu:-

David Nash & Partners O.E Thesis Matzorou, Potamos, davidnash1@ker.forthnet.gr 49100 CORFU (+30) 2661 046146

He has mine at the moment (I hope!)

 

[AndrewB]

Yes. But I wouldn't bother if I was doing only day sailing, specially in the Ionian, provided I had an inflatable dinghy large enough for all the crew and kept reasonably accessible.

 

[capnsensible]

Ive been in an inflatable that got rolled by a breaking wave. Bonkers idea to rely on it as a liferaft if you ask me.......

 

[OldBawley]

A life raft is one of those gizmo’s´s that create a false feeling of security.
When I was a chandler, I had many clients that ware totally new to sailing / boating.
Inherited a lot of dough, bought a yacht, rented a berth and then discovered driving a yacht is different from driving a car. Even if you bought a yacht with a wheel or two wheels.

That was Holland where ( Thank God ) everybody can buy and sail a boat without courses, permits and licences.

Selling a life-raft was a reason to ring the bell in our pub. A guaranteed income for many years.

They ware my best costumers, bought electronics and safety equipment in mass, thus creating a false safety.
I know, you guys are all experienced sailors, can think rationally, are not influenced by habits or new fashions.

Why is it that I see life rafts on yachts who never leave their mooring ?

There was a time when people rented a life raft to do a big crossing. Nowadays, everybody motoring from marina A to marina B has a life raft. The space is even moulded into the yacht so has to be filled.

Rant over.
I agree, the Ionian can be vicious, if you are caught out there needing to leave the yacht and use a life raft, then something in your ( investment ) planning was wrong.

 

[Tranona]

Ive been in an inflatable that got rolled by a breaking wave. Bonkers idea to rely on it as a liferaft if you ask me.......

Agree. Liferafts are invariably deployed in extreme conditions where an inflatable would be useless. Foundering in benign conditions is very rare (although not unheard of) so relying on a dinghy as main lifesaver is nonsense. May be useful as backup or helping recovery of an MOB, but not much else.

 

[sailinglegend420]

...So - for as long as I am in Greece/Turkey, it won't be serviced...

I agree. I'm not sure I would trust anyone to service it properly here in Turkey. We have heard of people having them serviced and absolutely nothing was done to it. There is no way you can check until it is serviced again by someone else.

We had our Zodiac last serviced in the UK 6 years ago by Zodiac and they reported there were 4 faults, and it would never have inflated if we had needed it. It was serviced three years earlier by the top guys in Southampton, who did give a full refund when we complained, and they re-trained their staff and modified their service procedures!

 

[AndrewB]

Liferafts are invariably deployed in extreme conditions where an inflatable would be useless. Foundering in benign conditions is very rare (although not unheard of) ...

I wonder if statistically, this is really true. I don't have figures of course but plenty of counter-examples spring to mind. Remember the celebrated case the Robertsons ("Survive the Savage Sea"), the family who took to their 9' dinghy and survived for 39 days after being holed and sunk by a whale - not by extreme conditions. There are other well-known examples of sea-survival involving liferafts where extreme weather was not a factor.

Come to that, one might also question the record of liferafts as a means of saving people whose yachts have been overwhelmed by extreme conditions: think of Fastnet 1979 or Sydney-Hobart 1998. It was one of the principal conclusions of the Fastnet race enquiry that yachtsmen should not think of their liferafts in this way.

 

[Tranona]

I wonder if statistically, this is really true.

Yes. If you read the MAIB reports, not only will you find very few founderings, but most are in extreme conditions, caused by extreme weather, structural failure or collisions where there is usually very little time - if any to launch a liferaft. There are examples of founderings in benign conditions such as the example you quoted, but they are very much in the minority.

You are, however, correct in suggesting that rafts do not always perform satisfactorily, and again reports are useful in understanding why. To be fair, design and construction have come a long way since 1979, but staying with the boat if it floats is still the best option.

 

[Andy and Lyn]

Yes. If you read the MAIB reports, not only will you find verner. y few founderings, but most are in extreme conditions, caused by extreme weather, structural failure or collisions where there is usually very little time - if any to launch a liferaft. There are examples of founderings in benign conditions such as the example you quoted, but they are very much in the minority.

You are, however, correct in suggesting that rafts do not always perform satisfactorily, and again reports are useful in understanding why. To be fair, design and construction have come a long way since 1979, but staying with the boat if it floats is still the best option.

Having spent many years involved in Search and Rescue its a no brainer. Found a good number of liferafts afloat with someone in usually, not always alive. Dinghys don't have the stabiliity so certainly not as good as a liferaft. As has already been stated, stay with your boat until its obvious its going to sink. If you genuinely can't afford the service just carry it anyway; but reliabilty will drop with time.

Its your life so in the end its up to you and I subscribe to the view that if you know the risks then make your own mind up. Same with life-jackets, grab - bags, radios and so on!

 

[tri39]

I don't carry one for summer sailing in the Med. But then my boat is theoretically unsinkable! I had to carry one when I was racing many years ago.
And for any future blue water trip I would probably hire one. However I would still be very reluctant to use it, unless the boat was on fire!!
And there has just been such a case in the Carib. Can anyone say whether the Portuguese insist on yachts carrying liferafts?
In an ideal world I'd like to move towards a boat with no through hull fittings too.

 

[affinite]

Thanks for all the opinions and suggestions.

There is obviously no clear right or wrong answer to my question

Ive decided that, as I already have the raft and the agents have it opened for inspection/test, I'll (reluctantly) pay for the service this time.
I think I'm actually paying through the nose for the convenience of letting the marina handle everything but I'm now caught between a rock and a hard place.
If I say "thanks for inspecting it but no thanks to the service/test" I'm not confident that the service agent will repack it with 100% reliability so I'd rather fret over having paid a lot of money rather than fret over having a suspect liferaft sat behind me for the next 2 years.
I will probably allow the next service date to drift by without fanfare (a bit like my birthdays these days)
Thanks again
Steve

 

[Monique]

I couldn't imagine sailing anywhere without a life raft.

+1... all you need to drive the point home is a F8 either Tramontana or Mistral while you are transiting...

 

[AndrewB]

+1... all you need to drive the point home is a F8 either Tramontana or Mistral while you are transiting...

Honestly, this makes me so cross. A liferaft is not the answer to sailing in rough conditions. If you feel like this about sailing in a F8, you SHOULDN'T be transiting.

 

[duncan99210]

Honestly, this makes me so cross. A liferaft is not the answer to sailing in rough conditions. If you feel like this about sailing in a F8, you SHOULDN'T be transiting.

I think the point being made was that a dinghy would be of little or no use in those circumstances, should things go horribly wrong, rather than saying you must have a raft before setting out where you're likely to meet an unexpected F8.

 

[RichardS]

Yes we do - a ten man raft which would be hopeless for just the two of us in any big seas, but we got it with the boat. We had to get it serviced as part of the VAT registration last year in Croatia but probably won't get it serviced again. We either tow or keep on the foredeck a 3m rib and in most circumstances would use that.

I've brought my "came with boat" ten man Plastimo Transocean ISAF back to the UK this weekend. It's so heavy SWMBO and me could barely lift it and as we sail with 2 - 4 people, I don't think a 10 man raft is actually regarded as being very safe.

As far as I can see from the internet, there is no requirement to carry a life raft in Croatia so I wonder why you had to get yours serviced Rupert?

I'll start a new PBO thread with my other question about the Plastimo.

Richard

 

[charles_reed]

I 'm talking about a full service as well (including actually inflating the raft). I don't know anybody near Leros but I can give you the phone number of the company that I used. It's in Pireus but probably they can find a way. The company name is "Pyrsos" and the numbers are: (+30)2104176872, 2104539905, 2104520391.

Thanks for that Glyka - my BfA raft is one year over due - it's the perishables inside that demand the regular servicing, rather than the raft-fabric itself.
IMHO there's no great mystique in servicing a life-raft, it's the repacking technique that I lack.

To support your costing, mine was last serviced in Manoel Island Yard in Malta and the test, repack and mending of one leak cost £M150, including replacement of SOLAS packs. (about €350)

 

[charles_reed]

I think the point being made was that a dinghy would be of little or no use in those circumstances, should things go horribly wrong, rather than saying you must have a raft before setting out where you're likely to meet an unexpected F8.

I'd also suggest that a liferaft (having spent 5hrs in one in the relatively benign conditions of Ceregedion Bay) is equally useless.

A raft is irrelevant as a heavy weather resource - it's there if the boat goes up in flames or founders quickly due to collision OR to fly off a casualty.

 

[capnsensible]

Honestly, this makes me so cross. A liferaft is not the answer to sailing in rough conditions. If you feel like this about sailing in a F8, you SHOULDN'T be transiting.

A yacht can catch fire in a force 1.

A yacht could motor into a submerged hazard in a force 2.

Its quite possible to sail in a force 8 with no problems, I have survived that a few times! But if something fails, then you got your insurance.

Its no mistake that all vessels at sea carry life saving equipment, commercial vessels are required to. It seems to me that its just a few yachties making limp excuses to not spend on safety that lack the sense to do it right. In my opinion!

 

[RupertW]

As far as I can see from the internet, there is no requirement to carry a life raft in Croatia so I wonder why you had to get yours serviced Rupert?
Richard

We were told by the agent that all safety equipment including liferafts had to be within date for the pre-inspection for registering under the Croatian flag. We could have dumped the liferaft or stored it elsewhere but that was a hassle so we just paid for the service.

In the end we paid the VAT before Croation registration was complete so stayed under UK registry.

 

[tcm]

There is obviously no clear right or wrong answer to my question

This isn't true. You want to save the expense of carrying a liferaft. Others are saying well, it'll probably be okay, or that perhaps - one never knows- it might not be okay. Consider this : if something else happens - perhaps something that didn't need a liferaft but which calls into question your readiness and responsiibility as skipper - you'l be "that guy who didn't bother having a liferaft" and other conclusions will flow regarding your judgement in maritime matters. Any even-slightly-expert witness would report that not having a liferaft is hmmm, not good at all, and some would report it as much worse. For crew- if your skipper thinks it's ok to sail with no liferaft, my advice is to smile and step ashore. Because if he STARTS from that point ... what's next?

The right answer is to carry a liferaft.