MBY & Appeasement

[Gludy]

Re: Prices affect us all

The governement is raising fuel taxes again making the gap even bigger with Europe - so much for parity.
This is at a time of high oil prices - in effect its a nice tax on everything.
There will probably be a revolt next week - what won the last one was the fact that it had public support.
In the wider boating community it seems many want to hurt other boaters , other just want to take it easy and let the world control them and others want to fight. - no united front at all and that is sad.

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Re: Full and frank exchange of ....ummm

>>>
I have yet to hear of one single instance of the owner of any smaller craft more representitive of the main gamut of fun boaters raise the wail of anguish heard from certain quarters.
>>>

Well me for one. I've moved to the river partly to pacify SWMBO and party to save a few bob in fuel costs, so I can keep boating. I plan to pop down to Chatham/Ramsgate when time and money permit but if prices skyrocket even that option will have to go.

I am of the opinion that one of a politicians basic roles is to justify _any_ tax that is proposed, and to accept that the case for a given tax may need to be remade regularly. The other job is to spend the tax wisely, and the current lot fail on both counts.

There again, I'm in favour of tax hypothecation, banning the Minister of Transport from using anything other than public transport until he's got it right and the summary execution of social workers, HSE jobsworths and anybody who likes soap opera so what do I know about running a country?


<hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.

 

[Medskipper]

Well said Paul!

I agree we should all fight as hard as possible to stop this insane raise on diesel.
My wife used to work for Shell in their marketing dept and it was well known that the amount of fuel used by motorists is a tiny percentage of that used in industry.

Therefore what we use in the pleasure marine sector is not even worth talking about financially. So I fear that this is more a game of politics than anything to do with raising funds from a sector that is perceived to be wealthy by the general public!

I have been boating for about 12 years and like many people have worked my way up to a vessel that burns around 12 gals an hour. I am not wealthy, I just about manage to stay boating every year that goes by, but if red diesel goes and we are forced to pay forecourt prices I will certainly have to sell the boat.

When I started boating the world seemed to be a much more carefree place, but now everyone seems to want to control our hobby! every face less beauocrat seems to be wanting to squeeze more and more money out of us boat owners.

But not only do I burn fuel, Like most other boat owners I buy marine equipment and all sorts of bits and bobs throughout the year. If along with many others I give up many of the people who work in the marine industry will be out of work!

Its going to be an absolute disaster for the whole marine industry!

Keep up the fight

Barry


<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!

 

[halcyon]

Re: Prices affect us all

Clearing out some paper the other day, found some figures from 2000 on fuel prizes.
May 2000 78.7 ltr, Jun 81.7 ltr, by Aug 89.9 ltr, so far following trend as before, at the time Zuerich was paying 60 p ltr. For interest May 96 was 55.9 p ltr, or £2.54 a gallon, do remember around 1969 getting 4 gallon and change from a pound.
I wonder when it becomes ' not worth the effort ' in selling fuel in small qauntity at shore side. They are expected to buy 5,000 / 10,000 litres a time, store it, ship it to a pontoon, then smile as a yacht takes 20 litrs, then sails of polishing his halo.


Brian

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[Gludy]

"I have been boating for about 12 years and like many people have worked my way up to a vessel that burns around 12 gals an hour."

Exactly. Where Iam we face a 400% increase if it goes all the way. most face a 300% increase. So those who have worked their way up to a boat using 12 gph would in effect have had imposed on them a boat that does 36 to 48 gph at todays rates.

The advocation of a policy that puts forward a doubling in the cost to 24 gph as it starting position and in so doing leaves us without any other of the charter points laid out by MBM - we have reduced it to a simple barter that is based on price and regardless of all the practical difficulties and the clear probelm of it probably raising less tax revenue. In doing that we would have lost before we bugun and the policy would have ditched the interests of many like yourself - who are the backbone of motor boating. Further we would have opened the door to another parity point - parity with other UK rates - the road tax rate. The entire datum would have shifted.

I agree with MBY that affordability by itself will cut no ice but the MBM charter deals with the effects of affordability and the lower tax yield.

This week I was approached by someone who owns a 30 odd footer that they just manage to run because of their passion - they explained that it was basically all they had in the world and could not afford a dramatic drop in price, so they wanted to lowere their risk and sell it prior to any announcement of the fuel tax solution - I could not tell them what would happen. However, if I would have had to explain what is being advocated by MBY I would have had to say that we are approaching Government without any arguements other than the affordability one - we are inviting a doubling of the price in the hope that they will not treble it. In so doing we are simply saying that is a fair parity basis with Europe and saying this to a government that already ignores EU parity and puts road rates well past any EU parity level. So, on that basis, we face at least a doubling of the fuel price and argue only on affordability and justice. Then he would have answered that it is certain he would face a big drop in boat price and would sell.

For the sake of clarity, just in case some consider me a 'special interest group' in the event of the full hike I would remove my boat to the Med because it would alter the balance of factors for keeping it UK based. I would spend months at a time in the med because I can work from almost anywhere. So I would not leave boating - just the UK. However many friends are not as lucky as me and would have to leave boating and this makes me angry. It even makes me more angry about what MBY is advocating because that policy is not realistic - it is appeasement that ditches many boat owners without a hope and actually does what it argues against - it bases the sole argument of affordability and justice!





<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[Medskipper]

Yes I have also been thinking that I would move my boat to the Med, but not so fortunate as you as I have to work in England! so I would only be able to visit 2 or three times a year, not sure that is good for the vessel!

I have spoken to a number of people around our marina and several have said they would do exactly the same, take it to the Med, problem with this is the marina's around the Med are already very full and the prospect of hundreds of boats leaving England to join them will of course send prices soaring in the Med!

Perhaps the best solution is to vote this government out of office! the next lot might be more sympathetic to boaters!

Barry



<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!

 

[oldgit]

The view from those with somewhat less thirsty craft.

Even if prices went up to road fuel levels,it would not prevent my boating.
My P33 will give 3 gph at 6 knots so average trip out of 5 hours costs me at moment 23.00 quid if price went up to road levels day trip out would cost 55.00.
Now as a petrol boater in a previous life about 4/5 gallons per hour was the norm so same journey(during the last so called fuel protests) was 72.00.
The general view of most of the fisherman and small craft users hereabouts has been not to broadcast the embarrasing fact that for years and years marine diesel has not attracted the same amounts of tax as other fuels and that it could not go on forever.OK while a small number of fishermen and small workboats were using the exemption but as soon as the situation was being exploited by growing numbers of pleasure craft it would have to end.
Anybody when buying a boat should have been aware that the cost was bound to go up eventually.
No need for two tanks either.Fishermen etc could just claim rebate as PPL aircraft users can do when doing Ahem......"training flights"



<hr width=100% size=1>If it aint broke fix it till it is.

 

[halcyon]

As I said before, 20 years ago most local sailer down here were "working class", ran a oldish boat for the love of sailing. Now with mooring costs going up they have nearly all gone, the fuel could finish most of what's left, it's now become the domain of the rich. Or the Escort van has gone, now we have Merc's, Audi, Volvo, or BMW in the carpark.
The one point not concidered is the cost of stocking diesel, in the 90's most car sales locations stopped selling fuel due to the increase cost in stocking petrol from spirralling fuel prices. This resulted in high stock cost on a low profit margin product, so why sell??, resently LPG disappeared from most outlets, why high cost low turnover product.
Increase red diesel by 300 % due to duty, profit does not go up, but your stock level has gone up to finance Government, is it then worth stocking diesel. Most outlets would not notice the loss in profit, but they reduce liability, do not need to find finance to pay for additional new price stock, save cost in insurence, repair and maintainance of tank and pumps, wages to pay someone to pump the diesel.
May not be I'm happy to pay, but anybody know were they stock diesel???????????????

Brian

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[Medskipper]

Re: The view from those with somewhat less thirsty craft.

You sound as if you are not interested in helping to fight this proposed increase on tax! Let me assure you that even if you do have a vessel that only burns 3 gals an hour this IS going to affect your boating.

With a large proportion of people dissapearing from the market it will affect every aspect of the boating fraternity in ways that are yet to be seen! you my friend will also suffer I can assure you.

Barry


<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!

 

[oldgit]

Re:Sorry Barry to disagree but

My post was about the fact that most leisure boaters will not suffer the catastrophic consequences mentioned in the above threads.I can well understand the view from a number of people with a certain type of craft in certain locations,but the vast majority of boaters did not,through choice or depth of pocket feel the need to have craft which are only viable if run on cheap marine diesel which could never increase in price.
When was the last time MBY ever mentioned that a boat was very fuel efficient rather than how fast the thing was.There has never been any pressure to build more fuel efficient craft,just faster ones.Well now the builders and designers will have to face the harsh reality that the car manufacturers faced a few years ago.
You only have to look at the ever growing number of ever larger craft using marine fuel to appreciate why things were going to change.

<hr width=100% size=1>If it aint broke fix it till it is.

 

[apollo]

Re: Full and frank exchange of ....ummm

"Could you please name a cruising power boat that manages 2 to 3 gph? "

Er, mine!

Its a Princess 37, but we cruise at 8-9knots, perhaps a speed unknown to you?

But before you say it, yes we have been places, 3 weeks to Holland last year and a trip to Bruges the year before.

Like others I do not want to go chasing spending more money unless I have to, but if it happens it will not be the end of boating for me.

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[KevB]

Re: The view from those with somewhat less thirsty craft.

"Even if prices went up to road fuel levels,it would not prevent my boating".

Well good for you. As long as you are alright, why worry!!

It's nice to see you have such a "I'm alright Jack" attitude and sod everyone else.

Happy boating.


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[KevB]

Re:Sorry Barry to disagree but

"My post was about the fact that most leisure boaters will not suffer the catastrophic consequences mentioned in the above threads.I can well understand the view from a number of people with a certain type of craft in certain locations,but the vast majority of boaters did not,through choice or depth of pocket feel the need to have craft which are only viable if run on cheap marine diesel which could never increase in price".

what a load of complete rubbish. I chose diesel because of the cost otherwise I could have bought petrol and saved myself a small fortune on the initial outlay.

I would argue that there are far more motorboats located in costal marina's using 10gph + than there are motorboats on inland waterways using 3gph.

You have a very selfish attitude trowards your "fellow" motorboaters.

If for some reason they decided to TAX boaters who used the medway £3000 for the privalage wouldn't you expect fellow motor boaters to stand up for you in your fight, or would you just accept it?



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[Gludy]

Re: The view from those with somewhat less thirsty craft.

I do underdtand that in your case with 2-3 gph you would just swallow it and in effect go up to paying what in todays prices would be for 9 to 12 gph boat.

Howver many cannot afford that jump and of course sea going cruising boats would be crucified.

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[Gludy]

If there were a new class of marine diesel leaving red for commercial users, the sellers would have to invest large amounts for what would be a greatly reduced sales level compared to even today's sales levels.

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[Gludy]

Re:Sorry Barry to disagree but

"My post was about the fact that most leisure boaters will not suffer the catastrophic consequences mentioned in the above threads"

That is nonesense and you simply are not in contact with normal owners of normal size sea going power boat cruisers.

It is you that is simply saying that 'I am all right jack'.

You seem to have issues with those who have sea going power boats - it is a shame that you are not able to see the bigger picture.

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[Medskipper]

Re:Sorry Barry to disagree but

Yes I agree with what you say, however if the tax is applied all in one foul swoop, it will be a dissaster for the boating industry!

I deal with marketing and market forces evry day and you along with all the other smaller boat owners with be badly affected in many ways as well. It will have a knock on effect throughout the boating world!

agree or dissagree all you want, what I am saying will be fact! just you watch! fight it while you can!

Barry


<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!

 

[halcyon]

Which has been my point, will they invest big money in new tanks, pumps and pipework, to increase there stock holding value by 2/300 %, for a product with limited sales, and low profit margin.
There is a good chance they stick to red diesel to a regular sales group, for a no cost outlay and low stock value.
Thus there may be no diesel to buy at any price, though I am tempted to think the large marina's will sell instead of red due to limited commercial sales. But then they can charge what they like as there is no were else.

Brian

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[Planty]

Re: Full and frank exchange of ....ummm

Did you ever get any straight answers? Seems you got ignored on that front when exactness was required?

Over the weekend I filled up at approx 28p - 30p after discounts etc. total for 12 tonne F43 running 2 x Volvo 74's deisels circa £250, filled up 3.5m Jet Rib running Yamaha 80hp petrol, cost circa £60!! Now if certain fellow boaters had their way that would be circa £1000 to £60 and the for sale sign for both about £20!! Oh and by the way most economical cruising, worked out the proper way, waterline x horsepwer x inside leg etc. is 2100 revs, that is 25knts, so 6mph "tootling" don't help a lot. I'm with you, "alright jack" is not for me.

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[Gludy]

Re: Full and frank exchange of ....ummm

"Did you ever get any straight answers?"

No - I just gave in.

It seems to me that some people resent those who can afford bigger boats - this means that such people also resent those, even on the same income, who choose to sacrifice in one area so that they can spend, lets say, on a boat. Its part of our resentment culture.

Another faction within boating seems to think that we all have money to waste and actually believe such standard cliches as if you have to ask the price, you cannot afford it rubbish.

I honestly find these attitudes sickening.

Stupid points are also raised about boats doing 2 to 3 gph as if noone else should exist!!!

I have, in the past, had some major battles when it seemed that the odds were impossible. In one battle I managed 11 questions in the House of Commons within a week, many TV news slots and many newspaper headlines - it took 11 days but I won. I do not like starting these battles, but when I fight, I fight. Even when that battles was won some of those who directly benefited from it made snidy remarks but would never actually openy debate the issues.

I am frankly sickened by some of the attitudes expressed on this forum.

I really do understand the uphill battle we face, I really do understand the boating ' image' is a problem and the last thing we want doing a blockade is gin palaces - although I would support a blockade of more seasoned boats ;_) - however, I do not think we should give in - we should fight and the MBM charter is a start - the fact that to date I have not had a direct answer to which parts of this are supported by MBY maybe because they are very busy right now but I really would like some straight talking on these forums.

To "Oldgit"
As I have directly asked you questions that you have failed to answer may I point this out:-
I am wanting to fight, not just for me to keep my boat in the UK but for many, many boaters who would have to leave boating. In most ways they are more effected by this than me because I can escape.

You on the other hand are putting forward an 'I am alright Jack' attitude clothing it with the misleading fact that it represents most power boaters.

My guess is that I am what you mean by those with vested interests protesting loudly simply because I have a big boat. The truth is that the full hike would kill marine power boat crusing as we know it in the UK. I would escape anyway. The net tax position would be negative and all the effort would have done no more than ruin the UK marine cruising world.

I used to see us as all being boaters but realise that this is just not the case.... that is very, very sad.




<hr width=100% size=1>Paul