Max number of people on board ?

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Andrew M

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Hi,

Ok, what is the score with regard to how many people one can have on a boat ? Is the max number as stated by the builder the true max you should ever carry, is insurance invalid if you go over etc etc. ? We have a quoted max of 10, so what are the implications of having say 12 on board for a day trip ? I've never gone over the stated number on previous boats, and don't actually plan to do so with this boat but was just wondering what the proper, legal, safety position is ?
Yes, it's a bit of a daft question as the answer is, I guess, in the boat spec, but was just wondering.

Ta

Andy
 
I've always understood it to be 12 regardless of boat size, over that you needed to coded for passenger use with liferafts etc....
 
I would say that on a small fibreglass boat (sub 20ft) it would be a good idea to stick to the plate limit: it's probably a sensible guide to the load that can be carried without compromising the freeboard height.

On a larger boat, it's pretty meaningless, other than it has been stability tested with the plated number of people. It doesn't mean that the boat will be unstable or sink with a slightly larger number, it just means it hasn't been tested, so what would happen is "undefined".

Personally, I like a bit of space to move around my boat, the fridge isn't big enough, and the Q for the Loo with 12 people on board would be too long. I also don't have 12 lifejackets.
 
I'm a commercial Yachtmaster and my licence restricts me to a limit of 12 people. After this and i think i need extra training etc and will need to give even more money to the RYA for doing nothing.
 
I would not exceed the max number on the rating plate/CE label and have the right number of lifejackets. A few years back someone took way too many people out on their boat and it overturned. Someone drowned and skipper went to prison. Admittedly it was a small ish boat but if there is some kind of accident, the skipper is responsible.
 
ari said:
Commercially that might be the case, but presumably not just if it's you and some (non paying) mates?
Click to expand...

I don't believe so. It's a long time ago now but when I used to be involved in the design and build of quite large superyachts the MCA coding was always up to 12 unless the vessel was designated as a commercial passenger vessel. It has nothing to do with paying or not. I don't believe this has changed unless someone knows better.
 
Can depend on where you are.
My CE plate is A/8, B/10, C/12
where A is ocean, B is offshore, and C is inshore.

Reasonable to assume that if I were to exceed the number of POB in a specific area that my insurance could/would be invalid
 
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ari said:
Commercially that might be the case, but presumably not just if it's you and some (non paying) mates?
Click to expand...

As I understand it no, if one of your mates died and you had more than 12 aboard you will go to prison. This did actually happen on the River Severn a few years ago, a small Freeman was overloaded capsized and the skipper was prosecuted.
 
From the MCA regarding private vessels:
If more than 12 passengers are carried, irrespective of whether payment is made, the vessel is a “passenger ship” under UK Merchant Shipping regulations and needs to be appropriately surveyed and certificated. If more than 12 passengers are intended to be carried, the MCA must be contacted through the nearest MCA Marine Office.
The local MCA Marine Office will provide guidance on the procedures and standards to be followed for a pleasure vessel intending to carry more than 12 passengers.
 
There seems to be some confusion around coding, CE plates and using boats privately.

Coding is required if you want to use a boat for commercial work such as chartering. There are various bodies who oversee coding within the UK on behalf of the MCA (Maritime and Coastguard Agency). MGN 280 is the document which contains the meat of what you need to comply with and it covers vessels up to 24m in length and vessels carrying up to 12 passengers plus crew.

Privately used boats do not have to be coded nor comply to MGN 280.

Your comment about having to have 2 more life jackets than persons on board only applies to inflatable type life jackets and is only applicable if the boat is coded for commercial use.

The CE plate relates to the Recreational Craft Directive which is applicable to British (and other countries) supplied boats. On the plate are the recommended limits placed by the boat manufacturer. They are recommended limits, they are not the absolute maximum figures for a craft. If you chose to ignore those limits consequences might arise but I don't believe it is a given. I am not suggesting you ignore these limits.

When coding a vessel for commercial use you will be required to carry out specific stability tests based on the number of intended people on board. Assuming you pass the stability tests these numbers can not be exceeded. You will be prosecuted.

As a skipper you have responsibilities to the people on board regardless of whether they are paying you or not. Always fear the worst and at times be prepared to be a killjoy if you think it will save lives.

Henry :)
 
But they do have to comply with MGN 489.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../268868/mgn489-amendment-pleasure-vessels.pdf
I think the general answer is don't take any more than the CE plate recommends (so it is relevant to size of vessel i.e. just because MGN says you can carry a maximum of 12 doesn't make it sensible to do so which i think is the general consensous from the majority of posts) and never take over 12. And of course take conditions in to account - good response by henryf - skippers responsibility for safety, never be afraid to say no should circumstances and conditions dictate....)
 
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Chris_d said:
As I understand it no, if one of your mates died and you had more than 12 aboard you will go to prison. This did actually happen on the River Severn a few years ago, a small Freeman was overloaded capsized and the skipper was prosecuted.
Click to expand...

It was an old Norman IIRC. The interesting thing is that an old Norman, or Freeman come to that, would have been built pre RCD. That means it would have no plate with maximum POB. I don't think that particular boat had loads on board, maybe 8 or so, but the problem was that everyone went to one side at the same time to look at something. I wonder what exactly the skipper was found guilty of?
 
boatingdave said:
From the MCA regarding private vessels:
If more than 12 passengers are carried, irrespective of whether payment is made, the vessel is a “passenger ship” under UK Merchant Shipping regulations and needs to be appropriately surveyed and certificated. If more than 12 passengers are intended to be carried, the MCA must be contacted through the nearest MCA Marine Office.
The local MCA Marine Office will provide guidance on the procedures and standards to be followed for a pleasure vessel intending to carry more than 12 passengers.
Click to expand...

A very interesting point and one often flaunted from my observations. Presumably it depends on how you define "passengers" and "crew".

MGN 489 makes interesting reading and I suspect would catch a few people out.


Henry :)
 
For CE, max passengers is the number of passengers, assuming standardised weight and luggage, that the boat will meet - or has been tested to meet - the relevant safety requirements e.g. stability, etc for a give category.
Going over means the boat may no longer meet the requirements for the given category.
 
Steve Clayton said:
My CE plate is A/8, B/10, C/12
where A is ocean, B is offshore, and C is inshore.
Click to expand...
Do you mind me asking on what boat you've got such CE plate?
Each and every CE boat I've seen show in their plate the category (mostly A or B), but always with just one max number of people allowed.
I've never seen a CE plate with such differentiation.
 
MapisM said:
Do you mind me asking on what boat you've got such CE plate?
Each and every CE boat I've seen show in their plate the category (mostly A or B), but always with just one max number of people allowed.
I've never seen a CE plate with such differentiation.
Click to expand...

Very common. My Bavaria 33 sailboat is 8 persons Cat B and 6 Cat A. As discussed earlier it is related to stability as people come with associated additional weights. Clearly more relevant on smaller boats where each additional person is a larger proportion of weight, or where stability is close to the minimum for the category.

There are all sorts of other things that can lead to differentiation in category - for example guard rails on a sailboat - essential for Cat A, optional for B.
 
Do you mean very common on sailboats, maybe?
Must admit that I never checked the CE plate on the (few) sailboats I've been on, but I could name literally dozens of mobos/brands whose CE plates were undifferentiated, so to speak.
Regardless, it's all a bit academic, imho.
I mean, I understand the principle, but in most boats the inherent stability is much more influenced by whether the tanks are full or empty, rather than the number of people onboard...
 
CLB said:
It was an old Norman IIRC. The interesting thing is that an old Norman, or Freeman come to that, would have been built pre RCD. That means it would have no plate with maximum POB. I don't think that particular boat had loads on board, maybe 8 or so, but the problem was that everyone went to one side at the same time to look at something. I wonder what exactly the skipper was found guilty of?
Click to expand...

I remember this happening on the Severn at Stourport carnival, must be getting on for 10 years ago or so now. Boat was a Norman 24, there were 16 people on board, had numerous warnings / concerns from other river users advising that their boat was overloaded with people. The warnings were ignored by the owners. The tragic event happened when the boat turned to return to go into Stourport marina. One of the people fell overboard, all the others went to the one side to try and help and the boat capsized. A woman was asleep in front cabin and didn't make it out.
Below is link I found from newspaper article. The owners in my opinion were irresponsible to allow that amount of people onto that size of vessel. At the end of the day we all have a duty of care for the people we have on board our boats.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-195220/Three-bailed-party-boat-death.html
 
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