Roberto
Well-known member
ooops, posted on an anchor thread 
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Marking anchor rode
- Thread starter ridgy
- Start date
thinwater
Well-known member
If the marks are every 25' and the chain is some multiple of 25 feet (common practice here, anyway--buying 216 feet of chain would feel weird), marks won't affect flipping.
Neeves point on re-galvinizing is true, but in the US re-galvinizing has become so impractical (very few business left that will touch anchors and chain) that in practice, no one does it. You just buy new chain.
BTW, I found latex paint works very well on rope.
I can be an anchoring maven, having written many articles, done a fair bit of testing, and written a book, but it's not such a precision activity that a few meters matter. As others have stated, there are rules of thumb and stuff we know ... and then we go by what we "feel" it all adds up to.
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As I said, most old chain goes in the bin. I suggest leaving it beside the skip, if it is not too bad. It has uses. Even if parts are heavily rusted, there are usually some pretty good sections.
Neeves point on re-galvinizing is true, but in the US re-galvinizing has become so impractical (very few business left that will touch anchors and chain) that in practice, no one does it. You just buy new chain.
BTW, I found latex paint works very well on rope.
I can be an anchoring maven, having written many articles, done a fair bit of testing, and written a book, but it's not such a precision activity that a few meters matter. As others have stated, there are rules of thumb and stuff we know ... and then we go by what we "feel" it all adds up to.
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As I said, most old chain goes in the bin. I suggest leaving it beside the skip, if it is not too bad. It has uses. Even if parts are heavily rusted, there are usually some pretty good sections.
- Tying to concrete docks. In Hawaii in many harbors all of the boats have a chain strop on the dock, to which the mooring lines are secured. The relentless surge would eat any chafe gear. The galvanizing wears off in a week and even the chains don't last too long. Then they shackle on a new loop.
- Kellet. A loop of chain (about 10-25 feet in multiple loops) makes a great kellet for rope rodes. Unlike a chunk of iron, it will come over the rollers, avoiding strain and acrobatics.
- Here local fisherman like old chain for certain weight applications.
TSB240
Well-known member
I had an early season incident before I had sorted my chain marking.
We dragged quite badly in a 35 knot squall. It was a very black night only lit by the lightening storm.
I had to reset our anchor 8 times before it finally found some good holding.
I managed to mark our anchor chain about a meter before the rope splice and just before the anchor hits the bow roller with some reflective tape after the second anchor drag.
I could not see the existing colored ribbons from the cockpit.
Using a torch other than a red head light is ill advised as this destroys your night vision. Anchoring in a safe manner in close proximity to other boats is hard enough on a pitch black night.
Thoroughly recommend reflective tape at each end of your anchor chain rode.
I have a horizontal windlass which has no problem with catching or ripping tapes off.
We dragged quite badly in a 35 knot squall. It was a very black night only lit by the lightening storm.
I had to reset our anchor 8 times before it finally found some good holding.
I managed to mark our anchor chain about a meter before the rope splice and just before the anchor hits the bow roller with some reflective tape after the second anchor drag.
I could not see the existing colored ribbons from the cockpit.
Using a torch other than a red head light is ill advised as this destroys your night vision. Anchoring in a safe manner in close proximity to other boats is hard enough on a pitch black night.
Thoroughly recommend reflective tape at each end of your anchor chain rode.
I have a horizontal windlass which has no problem with catching or ripping tapes off.
thinwater
Well-known member
Please explain why you needed to see the marks from the cockpit. I'm guessing you were using the engine. I'm guessing you were solo.
- Someone must be at the bow to secure the rode. If solo you can do this after set, but that is hard on the windlass. Sometimes there is no other way, I accept that.
- A windlass always has a control at the bow, though less commonly in the cockpit. Was there only a control in the cockpit?
- You don't need to see the marks if you are powering down (which you must have been if not at the bow). Just count the seconds and multiply by the rate. 5 seconds at 5 feet per second (or whatever it is) is 25 feet. No need to see the marks. I've done this many times at night and/or solo.
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Re. red light for night, that is an obsolete wives tale in this age. The military and aviation, at least in the US, has moved to dim white for night use. It turns out that white light is so much more effective you can use far less for the task. Our brains evolved for starlight, not red light. Sort of ... obvious.The main reason for red that I can think of is simply to identify it as different.
- The white needs to be very dim, about 100x less than the typical torch. Also, most red head lamps are many times to bright. A white head lamp with athletic tape over the lamp will outperform red both in utility and dark adaptation retention. Test this yourself in your basement.
- Any decent headlamp has a red lamp switch. I assumed that. All but the very cheapest. At least it is sort of dim.
- If there is a rode color code it's not going to work with red light. Line identification will also go to hell.
TSB240
Well-known member
I thought this was a post about anchor rode marking!
My contribution was to say I found reflective tape at the end of my rode allowed me to hoist and redeploy my anchor 5 times in challenging conditions from the safety of my centre cockpit without putting myself or my partner at risk in the dark on a moving foredeck. I have a remote and can operate my windlass from anywhere on the boat.
I found the reflective tape was picked up by my red light head torch which on white light blinded my night vision, red did not. I have red light throughout the boat at night time for the same reason.
Perhaps the makers of the plastic inserts could add some magical reflective fairy dust or add half a dozen night glow markers to their expensive solution.
There was no need to power set in those conditions and my windlass is designed to slip should too much shock load be applied.
My contribution was to say I found reflective tape at the end of my rode allowed me to hoist and redeploy my anchor 5 times in challenging conditions from the safety of my centre cockpit without putting myself or my partner at risk in the dark on a moving foredeck. I have a remote and can operate my windlass from anywhere on the boat.
I found the reflective tape was picked up by my red light head torch which on white light blinded my night vision, red did not. I have red light throughout the boat at night time for the same reason.
Perhaps the makers of the plastic inserts could add some magical reflective fairy dust or add half a dozen night glow markers to their expensive solution.
There was no need to power set in those conditions and my windlass is designed to slip should too much shock load be applied.
thinwater
Well-known member
I am sorry you felt my post was aggressive. I was just trying to understand.
My last boat had a center cockpit and multiple windlass controls, so I do understand. I anchored on quite a few rough, dark nights. However, your object lesson tends to disprove your principles. You provided several key details above.
If you had been on the bow you could have applied a chain lock or snubber and power set the anchor. It seems there was a reason to power set the anchor.
The purpose of the clutch on a windlass is for overloads that might occur during hoisting. You are NOT intended to leave the anchoring load on the gypsy, but rather to secure the rode by a lock of several sorts. Leaving the rode wears the gypsy and strains the windlass, regardless of the clutch. This is in the manual. You must secure the rode by other means.
Yes, a power set may very well have prevented the entire episode. Additionally, from the bow it is likely you could have reset in 1-2 tries, by being able to see how the rode was reacting to the anchor engaging.
If you feel moving on the foredeck is that hazardous, researched jackstays. In fact, it is a vtal part of seamanship to have a safe means of accessing any part of the deck under any conditions.
The bottom line is that you must get to the bow to perform certain aspects of anchoring, including observing rode tension (is it steady or vibrating due to dragging) and securing the rode.
As for red vs. white, that's an old wives tale you are not interested in considering. Another time. What is obvious is that comparing a white torch with a dim red light is a false comparison. I would instead challenge you to use a white light that is dimmer than the red light. You will be surprised. Aviation and the military have moved to dim white for night use. This change happened about 3 decades ago, so it is established practice.
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I'm not trying to argue with you. I am providing information for other readers.
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webcraft
Well-known member
I always power set our anchor at 2000rpm before putting the snubber on, it never seems to have done the windlass any harm - my understanding is that the snubber is primarily to protect the windlass from shock loads, which does not apply when power setting.
Our chain is marked with different coloured ribbon at 11m, 22m and 33m (just before the rope splice). Goes through the gypsy, doesn't hurt hands, and lasts forever.
I have a manual windlass and usually lower the chain by hand. I don't usually anchor in conditions where it is actually dangerous to be on the foredeck.
- W
Our chain is marked with different coloured ribbon at 11m, 22m and 33m (just before the rope splice). Goes through the gypsy, doesn't hurt hands, and lasts forever.
I have a manual windlass and usually lower the chain by hand. I don't usually anchor in conditions where it is actually dangerous to be on the foredeck.
- W
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thinwater
Well-known member
This is from the Lewmar windlass manual. My notes in color. The bolded parts were highlighted in the manual.
6.5 Operating tips
• Vessels at anchor will snub on the
rode and this can cause slippage
or apply excessive loads to the
windlass.
To prevent damage the fall-
safe pawl MUST NOT be left to
take the entire force from the
anchor rode while at anchor.
The rode should be secured
directly to a bollard, sampson
post or cleat and a chain
secured by a chain stopper.
1. When anchoring, power rode out
allowing the vessel to take up stern
away preventing the rode tangling
with anchor. Use this method for
mooring stern first to a jetty.
2. To aid recovery, under power, move
vessel towards anchor but not over
and beyond, as this can cause
damage to topside.
• As anchor approaches the vessel
use careful adjustments of controls
to avoid damaging vessel.
• Scope: As a guide it is
recommended that the depth of
chain to rope is 7 to 1 at anchor.
When retrieving anchor do not
overload or stall in windlass.
Notice that there are many warnings about not overloading the windlass. It is designed only to recover the weight of the chain and the anchor, not to hold the boat or pull the boat to the anchor. That's just how it is. No, you are NOT supposed to powerset with the rode held by the windlass. You secure the rode first.
6.5 Operating tips
• Vessels at anchor will snub on the
rode and this can cause slippage
or apply excessive loads to the
windlass.
To prevent damage the fall-
safe pawl MUST NOT be left to
take the entire force from the
anchor rode while at anchor.
The rode should be secured
directly to a bollard, sampson
post or cleat and a chain
secured by a chain stopper.
1. When anchoring, power rode out
allowing the vessel to take up stern
away preventing the rode tangling
with anchor. Use this method for
mooring stern first to a jetty.
2. To aid recovery, under power, move
vessel towards anchor but not over
and beyond, as this can cause
damage to topside.
• As anchor approaches the vessel
use careful adjustments of controls
to avoid damaging vessel.
• Scope: As a guide it is
recommended that the depth of
chain to rope is 7 to 1 at anchor.
When retrieving anchor do not
overload or stall in windlass.
Notice that there are many warnings about not overloading the windlass. It is designed only to recover the weight of the chain and the anchor, not to hold the boat or pull the boat to the anchor. That's just how it is. No, you are NOT supposed to powerset with the rode held by the windlass. You secure the rode first.
noelex
Well-known member
The most durable chain marking technique is a thin line. The superior plastic chain markers are the second best option and are more visible and interpretable. Combining these techniques is ideal.
Metric chain marks every 10 meters are effective.
Paint and cable ties are not suitable for frequent anchoring in harder substrates, but they are fine for boats that do not anchor full-time.
Metric chain marks every 10 meters are effective.
Paint and cable ties are not suitable for frequent anchoring in harder substrates, but they are fine for boats that do not anchor full-time.
thinwater
Well-known member
This also depends on the bottom. I like paint, but when around sand it wears thin within a few months, though it is still visible between the links, which is enough for me. I get it.
When I was mostly in the Chesapeake (soft mud) it seemed paint would last a very long time and would bring up less mud that any sort of insert, which counted as a befit. My current boat uses a combination rode, and latex paint works a treat. Yes, it wears, but (a) it is easy to repaint and (b) the paint soaks into the fibers and the stain never goes away, so you can always see it.
Also, I tried strings and ribbons; the chain stripper "stripped" them off in a few goes, unless it jammed on them.
Cleaning off mud is just a part of anchoring around here. You even recover your rode in stages, so the mostion of the waves can wash it off.
Different ships, different longsplices. I am convinced the answer to this one--other than not over-marking--depends on the area and the windlass. Whatever works.
webcraft
Well-known member
The extract you have diligently copied says the windlass should not take the full force when AT ANCHOR.
Because of snubbing, iesnatch loads.
It does not mention power setting at all. It also gives advice to secure directly to a cleat or chain stopper, which is bad advice as a snubber with a degree or elasticity should always be used.
You do what you want. My method has served me well on two boats for 21 years. If you have a chsin stopper by all means use it when power setting, but my experience tells me it is not essential.
- W
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Neeves
Well-known member
The shaft of the windlass usually has a gasket, seal at one end of the shaft. Constant loading of the shaft, when at anchor will reduce the life of the gasket. I don't think you will ever bend the shaft - its the seal/gasket that will wear. Of course its replaceable - but as you can extend its life using a simple strop and chain hook it seem perverse to destroy something critical that can be protected.
'Snubber' has 2 meanings.
It can mean a rope device to take shock loads being imposed on the windlass, a chain lock, sort of ratchet, can achieve the same thing. The shock loads are then transferred to a strong point, historically a Samson post. If the device is rope and takes the snatch loads off the windlasss the rope is probably too short to offer any meaningful elasticity. If you power set - this 'snubber' should be used to take the loads, shock or slowly increasing, off the windlass. Our snubber was dyneema and a chain hook.
A second use of the word snubber.
A snubber is applied to make anchoring more comfortable, it reduces or manages shock loads. However it manages shock loads using the elasticity of the rope, usually nylon. It also manages the shock loads that might be imposed on the windlass, or the short snubber, 1st meaning - but that is 'accidental'. A snubber to accept shock loads and make life comfortable needs to have elasticity, hence nylon, but also need to be long - you need to be thinking of elasticity, stretch of 1 metre, not 3 cm. Commonly an elastic snubber will be 'boat length'.
The long elastic snubber has a finite life span, dictated by the number of stretch cycles. Using it, the elasticity, when you power set will reduce the life of the elastic snubber.
If your snubber does not fail you possibly do not anchor very much or your snubber is too beefy and will not be as effective as a skinnier snubber. We have had 3 snubbers fail - when they fail it has the sound of gunshot.
Because the elastic snubber will fail you need a spare and also need the chain lock snubber - as when the elastic snubber fails the tension is then directed to the windlass.
Jonathan
webcraft
Well-known member
Thankyou for the lecture Neeves.
I use a nylon snubber and chain hook. The snubber is a little less than one boat length.
It works.
I have a spare snubber, and should both fail the chain would be secured directly to the central forward cleat while I improvised a third snubber.
I have yet to have a snubber snap, though I did have one that became overstretched. If you have snubbers snapping regularly then they are undersized for the job or not inspected and replaced when necessary.
Of course, if you use dyneema, with zero elasicity, then it will eventually snap. It is totally unsuitable for this purpose and you should replace it with nylon.
Is that sufficient for you, or do you have further patronising egg sucking advice to give?
— W
I use a nylon snubber and chain hook. The snubber is a little less than one boat length.
It works.
I have a spare snubber, and should both fail the chain would be secured directly to the central forward cleat while I improvised a third snubber.
I have yet to have a snubber snap, though I did have one that became overstretched. If you have snubbers snapping regularly then they are undersized for the job or not inspected and replaced when necessary.
Of course, if you use dyneema, with zero elasicity, then it will eventually snap. It is totally unsuitable for this purpose and you should replace it with nylon.
Is that sufficient for you, or do you have further patronising egg sucking advice to give?
— W
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noelex
Well-known member
I guess this depends on your windless. We use thin polyester double braid and despite anchoring near 365 days a year there are virtually no losses. Plastic chain markers are more visible and offer a better depth indication through color coding, making them a practical choice. However, we anticipate a slight loss of approximately 5-10% of markers every few years. We typically mark every 10 meters with five markers, ensuring that the loss does not compromise the system’s functionality.
We anchor in a huge range of substrates from soft mud to coral boulders so it is difficult to gauge the impact of different seabeds, but my impression matches your own observations. Paint is suitable for mud substrates, but its lifespan is limited in more abrasive seabeds.
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Neeves
Well-known member
This is what happens when the seal to the gear box fails (and the windlass is not regularly serviced).
Amazingly the windlass still operated, though not sure it worked to the specification. Its re-assuring the lubricant abilities of corrosion, mud and seawater. All credit to windlass manufacturers - some of them are robust.
The windlass was condemned not because of the seal failure but because of aluminium/steel corrosion and the windlass had to be cut out with an angle grinder. Use Duralac.
Service your windlass annually, don't over stress the windlass (by using it to take the tension when you power set your anchor). Stress might mean, in some circumstances, a snatch load, say caused by yawing, but can also mean a long and sustained load during power setting - neither will prolong the life of your windlass.
and
Use a short snubber as the fall back to the loss of your long snubber and use a long elastic snubber for snatch loads.
This, below, was our back up snubber, the green line is dyneema. If one of our 2 snubbers, arranged as a bridle fails then this is the back up to ensure the tension is not on the windlass. We used the same device to secure the anchor at sea, again to keep the tension off the windlass and ensure that if the clutch slipped we did not auto deploy all the rode.
Amazingly the windlass still operated, though not sure it worked to the specification. Its re-assuring the lubricant abilities of corrosion, mud and seawater. All credit to windlass manufacturers - some of them are robust.
The windlass was condemned not because of the seal failure but because of aluminium/steel corrosion and the windlass had to be cut out with an angle grinder. Use Duralac.
Service your windlass annually, don't over stress the windlass (by using it to take the tension when you power set your anchor). Stress might mean, in some circumstances, a snatch load, say caused by yawing, but can also mean a long and sustained load during power setting - neither will prolong the life of your windlass.
and
Use a short snubber as the fall back to the loss of your long snubber and use a long elastic snubber for snatch loads.
This, below, was our back up snubber, the green line is dyneema. If one of our 2 snubbers, arranged as a bridle fails then this is the back up to ensure the tension is not on the windlass. We used the same device to secure the anchor at sea, again to keep the tension off the windlass and ensure that if the clutch slipped we did not auto deploy all the rode.
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thinwater
Well-known member
It's just a water cooler conversation. That means the conversation is intended everyone that is reading, not specifically the person that is replied to. If it was a personal message, that would be a PM.
We participate to share ideas with the group, and more importantly, to learn from the feedback. I am interested, for example, to hear the experiences of people that use many methods.
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No, there is no absolute need to secure the rode before backing down / power setting in calm, protected settings. However, if you are anchoring in an exposed area in a breeze, perhaps where the chain could snap tight without the benefit of a snubber, then you should secure the rode first. This is the same as anchoring. For example, some years ago I was testing anchors and snubbers with a load cell in relatively shallow water and winds of about 10-15 knots. For a baseline, I rigged the load cell straight to the chain with no snubber. The load was about 50 pounds with spikes to 150 pounds. A wake came by, and load cell and a 3000-pound shackle holding it exploded in front of me. The chain and chain lock were fine, but I think that would have been bad for the windlass. I don't want to test that theory.
Every skipper makes their own choices. Some times I secure the chain before backing, and sometimes I don't, according to the circumstances. Same with recovering an anchor; in light winds, protected, and solo it is one way, in the open in a blow it is another.
I am sharing with new sailors that don't have a rang of expereince. You can do that as well. We may have slightly different perspectives, and that is not just OK, it's good.
webcraft
Well-known member
Hopefully new sailors will avoid anchoring in situations where severe snubbing / snatch loads are likely to occur while the anchor is being set. If doing so through necessity then I agree, a decently stretchy snubber should ideally be engaged before power setting the anchor. This may be easier to say than do however, and in these types of conditions it is not likely to be necessary to back down under power. Let out all your intended scooe and then set your snubber.
Better to find a spot with less fetch or wave action though.
One more observation - I usually power set the Spade or the Knox at 3-1 scope then let out 5-1 or all the chain (35m). (More than this and we are onto the nylon, so no snubber required, just make it fadt round the centre cleat/sampson post). I do this because if I can get a good set on a shorter scope then pay out the remainder of the chain I trust the set more. This may be imaginary, but it works for me. One advantage of this approach is less chain to recover should a satisfactory set not be achieved. And of course if you let out more chain after setting the snubber you will need to recover and reset the snubber.
I feel that the range of apparently conflicting and often dogmatic advice on anchoring displayed on threads like this is both confusing and intimidating for new sailors, and could put them off anchoring altogether - which is a shame, as the abilty to sleep sound safe at anchor is cruising's greatest freedom IMO
Get out and do it, as often as you can, find out what works for you and your boat.
- W