Marine Traffic AIS

wawando said:
It is not. This is not correct.
What you are saying is the same as using your car digital dongle (or even the plate) and build a site where i can track yiur movements and receive alerts when you leave home, etc.
You are shiwing the plate/broadcasting yohr it when you pass the highways, right?
Does this make sense? Then why should it be the case for boats?
It is a problen that those sites must handle, not me! And it is doable without paperwork in a similar way you did to activete paypal to yourbank account. All that is needed is the will to do so.
This is serious stuff and will have to be taken care.
Remember the car example.
Click to expand...

Sorry but what a load of twaddle ....

Do you know what the intention of AIS was when it was first 'created' ? Like everything in this world - they evolve. AIS has become a serious part of shipping trade. Yotties have been given a small slice to be in ... so sorry if you want to play in the "big boys game" - you have to accept their "rules".

Your "And it is doable without paperwork in a similar way you did to activete paypal to yourbank account. All that is needed is the will to do so." ... is total rubbish, totally different and I am surprised again given your claim to be a software developer.

Paypal as example :

When you go on the site and register - it is interacting directly with you in a two way communication regarding the actual works of the site > Your Paypal account. Not the registration ... your actual account. You are not seeing anyone else's account. Therefore Paypal can easily ask you about privacy ... same as Youtube .... Google ...... Skype .... etc.

AIS on the other hand is only interacting with you to display the map and everyones AIS info ... and if like me - my registration. But it does not interact in a way that can in any form regulate or ask about privacy of your specific AIS info.... other than your SITE registration.
What you are suggesting is basically that any AIS vessel shown on the site should be asked if it allows info to be displayed ... I have to stop myself from chuckling now ... sorry !

AIS is a tool used by serious people that amateurs are allowed to be let in .....

If you are so concerned about your details - then maybe contact the Radio Governing Body in Switzerland who oversee all National bodies issuing Radio Licences ... MMSI etc. Maybe they can tell national bodies to alter their rules and operations for you ? Somehow I doubt your paranoia will achieve much !
 
wawando said:
It is not. This is not correct.
What you are saying is the same as using your car digital dongle (or even the plate) and build a site where i can track yiur movements and receive alerts when you leave home, etc.
You are shiwing the plate/broadcasting yohr it when you pass the highways, right?
Does this make sense? Then why should it be the case for boats?
It is a problen that those sites must handle, not me! And it is doable without paperwork in a similar way you did to activete paypal to yourbank account. All that is needed is the will to do so.
This is serious stuff and will have to be taken care.
Remember the car example.
Click to expand...

I am no legal expert, but this MarineTraffic/vesselfinder etc thing does not sound right with ITU Radio Regulations.

They have a number of rules about secrecy of communications which might possibly be applied, ex:


Secrecy
17.1 In the application of the appropriate provisions of the Constitution and the Convention, administrations bind themselves to take the necessary measures to prohibit and prevent: 17.2 a) the unauthorized interception of radiocommunications not intended for the general use of the public; 17.3 b) the divulgence of the contents, simple disclosure of the existence, publication or any use whatever, without authorization of information of any nature whatever obtained by the interception of the radiocommunications mentioned in No. 17.2

and
18.4 § 2 The holder of a licence is required to preserve the secrecy of telecommunications, as provided in the relevant provisions of the Constitution and the Convention. Moreover, the licence shall mention, specifically or by reference, that if the station includes a receiver, the interception of radiocommunication correspondence, other than that which the station is authorized to receive, is forbidden, and that in cases where such correspondence is involuntarily received, it shall not be reproduced, nor communicated to third parties, nor used for any purpose, and even its existence shall not be disclosed.



AIS is part of the RadioMaritime section of the RR, if one listens even to an All Stations call, I suspect it is obliged to keep it secret/not divulge the content. The All Stations call seems to me a call for all Stations working under the RadioMaritime hat, which is not "general use of the public". MarineTraffic&co take data from the RadioMaritime service and redistribute it to non-RadioMaritime users. Not sure how legal it is ?
 
Roberto said:
I am no legal expert, but this MarineTraffic/vesselfinder etc thing does not sound right with ITU Radio Regulations.

They have a number of rules about secrecy of communications which might possibly be applied, ex:


Secrecy
17.1 In the application of the appropriate provisions of the Constitution and the Convention, administrations bind themselves to take the necessary measures to prohibit and prevent: 17.2 a) the unauthorized interception of radiocommunications not intended for the general use of the public; 17.3 b) the divulgence of the contents, simple disclosure of the existence, publication or any use whatever, without authorization of information of any nature whatever obtained by the interception of the radiocommunications mentioned in No. 17.2

and
18.4 § 2 The holder of a licence is required to preserve the secrecy of telecommunications, as provided in the relevant provisions of the Constitution and the Convention. Moreover, the licence shall mention, specifically or by reference, that if the station includes a receiver, the interception of radiocommunication correspondence, other than that which the station is authorized to receive, is forbidden, and that in cases where such correspondence is involuntarily received, it shall not be reproduced, nor communicated to third parties, nor used for any purpose, and even its existence shall not be disclosed.



AIS is part of the RadioMaritime section of the RR, if one listens even to an All Stations call, I suspect it is obliged to keep it secret/not divulge the content. The All Stations call seems to me a call for all Stations working under the RadioMaritime hat, which is not "general use of the public". MarineTraffic&co take data from the RadioMaritime service and redistribute it to non-RadioMaritime users. Not sure how legal it is ?
Click to expand...
Hi, Roberto. I hope all is well with you.
That is an interesting take. I have often wondered about this as the information on a ship carrying goods for some particular market must be of commercial value to competitors. I would be surprised if this point has not been tested in the courts.
 
Roberto said:
I am no legal expert, but this MarineTraffic/vesselfinder etc thing does not sound right with ITU Radio Regulations.

They have a number of rules about secrecy of communications which might possibly be applied, ex:


Secrecy
17.1 In the application of the appropriate provisions of the Constitution and the Convention, administrations bind themselves to take the necessary measures to prohibit and prevent: 17.2 a) the unauthorized interception of radiocommunications not intended for the general use of the public; 17.3 b) the divulgence of the contents, simple disclosure of the existence, publication or any use whatever, without authorization of information of any nature whatever obtained by the interception of the radiocommunications mentioned in No. 17.2

and
18.4 § 2 The holder of a licence is required to preserve the secrecy of telecommunications, as provided in the relevant provisions of the Constitution and the Convention. Moreover, the licence shall mention, specifically or by reference, that if the station includes a receiver, the interception of radiocommunication correspondence, other than that which the station is authorized to receive, is forbidden, and that in cases where such correspondence is involuntarily received, it shall not be reproduced, nor communicated to third parties, nor used for any purpose, and even its existence shall not be disclosed.



AIS is part of the RadioMaritime section of the RR, if one listens even to an All Stations call, I suspect it is obliged to keep it secret/not divulge the content. The All Stations call seems to me a call for all Stations working under the RadioMaritime hat, which is not "general use of the public". MarineTraffic&co take data from the RadioMaritime service and redistribute it to non-RadioMaritime users. Not sure how legal it is ?
Click to expand...

Suggest maybe the definitions of Radio Communication and Radio Information ?

this is just my take on the two ...

Communication indicates exchange of radio traffic in voice or other form that constitutes 'conversation'.

Information indicates the promulgation of data to assist others.

In my simple mind - I don't see a conflict with IMU regs ... maybe someone should ask them ?
 
Roberto said:
I am no legal expert, but this MarineTraffic/vesselfinder etc thing does not sound right with ITU Radio Regulations.

They have a number of rules about secrecy of communications which might possibly be applied, ex:


Secrecy
17.1 In the application of the appropriate provisions of the Constitution and the Convention, administrations bind themselves to take the necessary measures to prohibit and prevent: 17.2 a) the unauthorized interception of radiocommunications not intended for the general use of the public; 17.3 b) the divulgence of the contents, simple disclosure of the existence, publication or any use whatever, without authorization of information of any nature whatever obtained by the interception of the radiocommunications mentioned in No. 17.2

and
18.4 § 2 The holder of a licence is required to preserve the secrecy of telecommunications, as provided in the relevant provisions of the Constitution and the Convention. Moreover, the licence shall mention, specifically or by reference, that if the station includes a receiver, the interception of radiocommunication correspondence, other than that which the station is authorized to receive, is forbidden, and that in cases where such correspondence is involuntarily received, it shall not be reproduced, nor communicated to third parties, nor used for any purpose, and even its existence shall not be disclosed.



AIS is part of the RadioMaritime section of the RR, if one listens even to an All Stations call, I suspect it is obliged to keep it secret/not divulge the content. The All Stations call seems to me a call for all Stations working under the RadioMaritime hat, which is not "general use of the public". MarineTraffic&co take data from the RadioMaritime service and redistribute it to non-RadioMaritime users. Not sure how legal it is ?
Click to expand...
Wouldn't the argument be that AIS info is intended for 'public' interest, in that it isn't addressed to any one person or defined group of people?
 
scottie said:
So I am on a vessel without AIS receiver or radar would you rather I was not able to see you via my phone?
at all
in poor visibility
on a collision course
after you start sinking
Click to expand...
Zillions of people manage very safely around the world without AIS, radar and phones when out on boats. Without sinking.They are just tools, really. Great to have and to know how to use, but ot vital. In my opinion.
 
Ais and ads-b (aircraft) transmit data that is an open network and can be legally tracked by anyone. Therefore a web site repeating this info has no issues and usually shows filtered and out of date info.
Trains transmit on a closed network therefore not legal to monitor.
I cant understand why anyone would complain about ais tracking when they have chosen to transmit to the public domain on an open network
 
Rappey said:
Ais and ads-b (aircraft) transmit data that is an open network and can be legally tracked by anyone. Therefore a web site repeating this info has no issues and usually shows filtered and out of date info.
Trains transmit on a closed network therefore not legal to monitor.
I cant understand why anyone would complain about ais tracking when they have chosen to transmit to the public domain on an open network
Click to expand...

Quite detailed information is available e.g. real time trains, SWMBO occasionally uses this to track my progress (or lack of it) home
 
anoccasionalyachtsman said:
Wouldn't the argument be that AIS info is intended for 'public' interest, in that it isn't addressed to any one person or defined group of people?
Click to expand...
It is a slightly odd description to say that it is intended for “public use.” It is intended for other vessels in the area as an aid to safety. Although coast guards can use it for vessel identification, I have never seen that as an argument for implementation. However, the fact that it is broadcast and that firms such as MarineTraffic are using it suggests that Roberts’s interpretation of the rules is not seen as a reason to prevent its use. I find that surprising given the potential for commercial benefit in knowing about a ship’s destination and ETA.
 
franksingleton said:
It is a slightly odd description to say that it is intended for “public use.” It is intended for other vessels in the area as an aid to safety. Although coast guards can use it for vessel identification, I have never seen that as an argument for implementation. However, the fact that it is broadcast and that firms such as MarineTraffic are using it suggests that Roberts’s interpretation of the rules is not seen as a reason to prevent its use. I find that surprising given the potential for commercial benefit in knowing about a ship’s destination and ETA.
Click to expand...


The matter of Destination ... is a thorny subject in our business ..... many cargoes do not have destinations other than 'For Orders' ... example :

Gibraltar for orders .....

That can mean anywhere if coming from North Europe .....

Ships are costly to send to false locations ... but it is not unknown for AIS to be set to show a for orders location and not the real one.
Recently - the Iranian tanker held in Gib did this till it was too obvious where she was heading. What suprised me was she kept transmitting so much !!

Cargoes also change hands at sea ... documents re-issued ..... destinations changed .... even Ships Name changed ....
 
Refueler said:
Sorry but what a load of twaddle ....

Do you know what the intention of AIS was when it was first 'created' ? Like everything in this world - they evolve. AIS has become a serious part of shipping trade. Yotties have been given a small slice to be in ... so sorry if you want to play in the "big boys game" - you have to accept their "rules".

Your "And it is doable without paperwork in a similar way you did to activete paypal to yourbank account. All that is needed is the will to do so." ... is total rubbish, totally different and I am surprised again given your claim to be a software developer.

Paypal as example :

When you go on the site and register - it is interacting directly with you in a two way communication regarding the actual works of the site > Your Paypal account. Not the registration ... your actual account. You are not seeing anyone else's account. Therefore Paypal can easily ask you about privacy ... same as Youtube .... Google ...... Skype .... etc.

AIS on the other hand is only interacting with you to display the map and everyones AIS info ... and if like me - my registration. But it does not interact in a way that can in any form regulate or ask about privacy of your specific AIS info.... other than your SITE registration.
What you are suggesting is basically that any AIS vessel shown on the site should be asked if it allows info to be displayed ... I have to stop myself from chuckling now ... sorry !

AIS is a tool used by serious people that amateurs are allowed to be let in .....

If you are so concerned about your details - then maybe contact the Radio Governing Body in Switzerland who oversee all National bodies issuing Radio Licences ... MMSI etc. Maybe they can tell national bodies to alter their rules and operations for you ? Somehow I doubt your paranoia will achieve much !
Click to expand...
@Refueler So you think is is impossible to solve? Are you so sure in all that arrogance?
Do you want a solution to what you say is impossible explained in a paragraph?

Here is goes:
1) install marinetraffic app and login. You can put your mmsi although not even required but increases accuracy of course.
2) click options->associate account with mmsi: "please do a 15minute navigation and when finished press this button"
3) on the server side match the naviagtion tracked with the app with the tracking done via ais. Bingo, login paired with mmsi.

Satisfied? Do you need the code?

You must think beyond the obvious ;)

And maybe stop miss-evaluating the others and being so arrogant.

I am waiting for your compliment s :D (yes there are a few challenges but this solution solves the big "problem").

These sites are using our information much beyond the scope we share it for.
All i am asking is an opt-out option.
 
Last edited:
"wawando"

Still say your wrong because you are mixing up your registration with AIS info that is not from your keyboard or registration.

Suggest you contact Marine Traffic ... give them your solution and make yourself happy ..... :LOL:
 
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