LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
Are you infering that you don't use your engine in reverse to set your anchor?
Manual versus windlass anchors
- Thread starter Chris R
- Start date
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
As much as I enjoy a good Anchor discussion, getting back on topic . . .
One and a half Grand for switches, cable and fitting seems extortionate to me.
Quote 3, though high IMO, seems nearer the ball park considering he is supplying an extra battery and charging solution.
Knocking off about a Grand for the windlass, am I the only one who thinks that (certainly Quotes 1&2) are taking the piss?
One and a half Grand for switches, cable and fitting seems extortionate to me.
Quote 3, though high IMO, seems nearer the ball park considering he is supplying an extra battery and charging solution.
srm
Well-Known Member
Don't know about Neeves, but I frequently sailed into anchorages when running a charter yacht / RYA sailing school and set the anchor under sail. Normally head in to wind to take the way off, then lower anchor and pay out chain as the boat dropped back. Backing the jib or heaving too would help set the anchor depending on wind strength. In light airs we would lower the anchor and lay chain out sailing downwind, putting the wheel hard over so the chain was clear of the hull then snubbing the chain to set the anchor. Have also simply laid the anchor and chain on the sea bed and waited for the wind, some hours later, to straighten the chain and set the anchor. Never a problem but see my earlier comments for my choice of anchors.
It's only one or two generations ago that all yacht handling was done under sail so nothing special about these methods - they work. If you have sails the engine is a useful addition but should not be necessary, but it is admittedly very useful in modern cramped yacht harbours.
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
When I said using engine I thought about adding sail but the post would then start to get long winded!
I suppose I could have said 'some method of putting the boat in reverse' to set the anchor
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I think there is a difference in semantics.
We always run the engines when setting or retrieving our anchor. We have sailed onto and off our anchor - its good seamanship and good practice for crew - as it needs different skills and good communication. However sailing is meant to be a leisure activity and a pleasure and only anchoring under sail does not fit with the leisure part of the activity - especially when you have just sailed across Bass Strait and are feeling a bit jaded.. We have 2 auxiliary engines - installed for close quarter manoeuvring. We use them.
I think you originally said one needed to 'Drag' an anchor in order to set it - I was suggesting that you should not be dragging an anchor. A CQR might drag, for a measurable distance before it engages (and might not engage). Most modern anchors will engage immediately, or within a few cms. They then continue to engage until they set, or lock up (to me this is not dragging). It is effectively impossible to measure the length over which a modern anchor engages, it is usually less than a shank length - so unless you are sitting on the seabed you will be unable to measure the short distance involved. To me dragging is when an anchor does not engage and ploughs a furrow our bounces across the seabed allowing the yacht to drift backwards, it may engage and then set (lock up), it may not - but that uncontrolled movement of the anchor over the seabed - is dragging (to me)..
On bigger anchors - this again is about semantics - and the use of the word 'big, or bigger'.
I doubt anyone can tell the difference between the hold of a 20kg Rocna and a 25kg Rocna. A 20kg Rocna might have an ultimate hold of 2,000kg and a 25kg Rocna would have an uptime hold of 2,400kg. The maximum tension in the rode for a yacht for which these anchors are recommended might be 500kg-700kg - and the 700kg would be extreme. This tension would be at short scope, 3:1 in shallow water with no snubber. Few would recommend leaving the scope at 3:1 and few should anchor in such conditions, anyway, and should certainly be using a snubber. If you deploy lots of heavy chain (which most of us cannot carry as it adds weight in the bow) - alters the equation. I know I've measured tensions in our rode of 650kg - and its frightening. The fact the recommending anchor is 20kg and you bought a 25kg anchor will be re-assuring to you, if you don't have sufficient confidence in your ground tackle, - and thus you will sleep better (and the psychology benefits of spending good money on a bigger anchor are obviously important to some). It merits note that if you check the spreadsheets for CQR, Bruce or Delta they too will suggest that 20kg is appropriate - and they have half the hold of the same weight of Rocna. This triumvirate of anchors gave stalwart service up till, say 2006, and are still used successfully today including people on this forum. Go figure.
Now I wonder - how many actually know what the tension is in their rode, know what the hold of their anchor might be? On what basis do they choose their anchor?
However 'bigger' means different thing s to different people and one rule of thumb is to buy an anchor so big that people laugh and others buy (and public laud their claims), anchors 2 times the size recommended (which might be the point at which people laugh). If you follow this or these recommendation than it will be impossible under engine power, where the engine is an auxiliary diesel, to set that large (laughable) anchor deeply and it is possible that it being set light it will capsize or, with a change of tide, draw the chain under the fluke and trip the anchor.
Again buying an anchor of 25kg instead of the recommended size of 20kg is neither here nor there. But buying, and recommending of others, to buy an anchor twice the size involves 3 times the cost - and the extra hold will be an additional 80% - if you are lucky. Maybe better to buy 2 correctly sized anchors and lay them side by side.....???? - or just buy an anchor of the correct size that actually works.
Interestingly most people seem to buy anchors of the correct size (and don't worry a jot). The people who buy grossly oversized anchors seem to live in these forum....
I quoted our example of replacing a FX 23 for a FX 16 - because we could not deeply set the FX 23 and the stock 'stuck out'. I reinforced my reasoning to mention that a common complaint of Fortress is they self trip (which made me wonder if my reasoning might actually be correct
). I omitted to mention that one big downside of using a small Fortress is that it can set so deeply that it is very difficult to retrieve (which emphasises (if you think about it) the point I'm trying to make). I have wondered if Fortress actually oversize their recommendations because of the difficulty of retrieval of the smaller anchor - they chose what they thought was the lessor of 2 evils - but I am simply guessing - and one should not guess! Many people will also oversize their Fortress because they think being light it will not hold (it is amazing the thought processes) and some buy a Fortress as their ultimate storm anchor and think they need to have a FX55, not a FX23. They seldom use the big anchor - but when they do maybe it self trips....And flattery is always welcome...
This all started with a comment read on Viking's website about big anchors (which I have not yet read, and maybe I should before pontificating - but Hey - its the internet!) - maybe they think the same as me - after all they have stated on CF they read one of my articles which encouraged them with a, or some, design modifications - and I like the understated flattery. So don't get me wrong - yes I have an interest in Viking - they took note of what I said and said so publicly.
I do keep an occasional watching brief on Viking - it will be nice to have further independent endorsement of what I said (none of which is original) . I don't have any doubts, at all, (as its backed up by my own tests, agrees with University research and work done by the US Navy - all available on line, excluding some of my own test - but public endorsement by people using their Viking would be justification and enough for me. So - no - I have no financial interest in Viking, I'm just pleased they read, digested and acted.
Jonathan
Last edited:
mattonthesea
Well-Known Member
So Chris, do you have your answer? Once I think it was Zebedee on The Archers told someone to listen to all advice and then make his own mind up.
My penniworth. I am approaching mid-sixties. I have a 15 or 17kg (memory!) Supreme on 60m of 8mm chain and a Lofrans manual windlass. I would happily have some rode but the boat came with chain. I have sailed a solo North Atlantic circuit and spend most summers cruising (should be in the Baltic today). Rival 32 draws 1.5m. So I can generally anchor in shallow-ish water. Even 10m of chain is easy to pull up from the sea bed. I pull up a bit to raise the angle of chain and then let it settle with boat going forwards. then repeat. Engage Lofrans to pull out of the bed and then a little bit more effort to raise anchor to bow. Lofrans again to get around the bow roller and tie in. Take all chain in by Lofrans? No way -far too much effort!
Depending on conditions I sometimes set mainsail or engine on slow forward with tiller set centre. If bouncy I sit down and pull. Acting on advice from this forum I never run !
Even on boats with electric windlass I will disengage the clutch to drop anchor. It means I have control of speed and can get anchor to drop where I want it.
I will sail on to or off anchorage if I can - because I enjoy it
Have fun, whichever way you go
My penniworth. I am approaching mid-sixties. I have a 15 or 17kg (memory!) Supreme on 60m of 8mm chain and a Lofrans manual windlass. I would happily have some rode but the boat came with chain. I have sailed a solo North Atlantic circuit and spend most summers cruising (should be in the Baltic today). Rival 32 draws 1.5m. So I can generally anchor in shallow-ish water. Even 10m of chain is easy to pull up from the sea bed. I pull up a bit to raise the angle of chain and then let it settle with boat going forwards. then repeat. Engage Lofrans to pull out of the bed and then a little bit more effort to raise anchor to bow. Lofrans again to get around the bow roller and tie in. Take all chain in by Lofrans? No way -far too much effort!
Depending on conditions I sometimes set mainsail or engine on slow forward with tiller set centre. If bouncy I sit down and pull. Acting on advice from this forum I never run !
Even on boats with electric windlass I will disengage the clutch to drop anchor. It means I have control of speed and can get anchor to drop where I want it.
I will sail on to or off anchorage if I can - because I enjoy it
Have fun, whichever way you go
lw395
Well-Known Member
The cable and stuff is not cheap.
It's amazing how the odds and ends add up.
You can put a lot of hours in getting a pair of fat cables through a yacht interior.
Do you expect a proper job, where holes through bulkheads get the bare wood epoxied etc?
You'd have to discuss the details to know if the quotes are fair or whether they are trying to steer towards a favoured 'solution'.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
'So Chris, do you have your answer? Once I think it was Zebedee on The Archers told someone to listen to all advice and then make his own mind up.
My penniworth. I am approaching mid-sixties. I have a 15 or 17kg (memory!) Supreme on 60m of 8mm chain and a Lofrans manual windlass. I would happily have some rode but the boat came with chain. I have sailed a solo North Atlantic circuit and spend most summers cruising (should be in the Baltic today). Rival 32 draws 1.5m. So I can generally anchor in shallow-ish water. Even 10m of chain is easy to pull up from the sea bed. I pull up a bit to raise the angle of chain and then let it settle with boat going forwards. then repeat. Engage Lofrans to pull out of the bed and then a little bit more effort to raise anchor to bow. Lofrans again to get around the bow roller and tie in. Take all chain in by Lofrans? No way -far too much effort!
Depending on conditions I sometimes set mainsail or engine on slow forward with tiller set centre. If bouncy I sit down and pull. Acting on advice from this forum I never run !
Even on boats with electric windlass I will disengage the clutch to drop anchor. It means I have control of speed and can get anchor to drop where I want it.
I will sail on to or off anchorage if I can - because I enjoy it
Have fun, whichever way you go
Good post!
Neeves
Well-Known Member
My guess is that a lot of the money goes toward labour - but none of the tasks are difficult, running cables through bulkheads neatly, epoxying the holes etc all take an inordinate amount of time - but it can all be completed by a motivated owner. If it was here you might need a shipwright for part of the installation and a spark to wire it up. The costs soon mount.
As I said at the outset - start a new thread on windlass choice and then follow it up with yet another thread on installation. There is enough combined experience here to offer all the help needed - none of it is rocket science.
Jonathan
Mudisox
Well-Known Member
I thought this was about manual v powered windlasses. Trust Anchors/Anchoring to generate so much hot air.
