Manouvres In Tight Spaces

[NigeCh]

Scalloping ... NO WAY with a long keeler

Ken, You should have been part of the 2002 Great Backwards Challenge at Burnham on Crouch when everything went pear shape on open water on DeeGee's Rustler 36: Nobody, not even Bedouin scalloping could make it go backwards under control. But if you have a Farr 50 or a Beneteau 473 then going backwards under power is a piece of cake. Mind you, if you have a long keeler with a bow thruster then you MIGHT just be able to manoeuvre backwards under control.

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[BrendanS]

Re: Hogwash

Forgetting the fact that you once got smashed by a training boat, me being an ignoramus stinkie, is there any fact in what the rest of them talking about using a little non powering, sideways steadying sail?

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[NigeCh]

Hoisting a sail up the backstay on an average white boat requires a spare hank-on-sail with a spare halyard ... and a crew who knows how to do it, how to set it and how to release it.

I don't think that the article is irresponsible ... I think that it (and the future article of using an anchor to turn) refers soley to the diminishing art of sailing Thames Barges.

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: Eloquently put....

I think quite the contrary Neal.

I would have thought that the thread has mainly (maybe only, who knows?) attracted experienced people on both sides of the discussion. The sad part is that those on one side seem to be pretty reliant on dismissing the views of the other side (in the manner you have done) as being due to their inexperience, closed minds, ignorance, etc.

From that, perhaps it is then easy to see that it may be, during the operation of their vessels, they are also ready to (unknowingly? selfishly?) write off and dismiss in a similar way the concerns of others around them, whatever those concerns are based on - whether from lack of knowledge of your abilities, not trusting your abilities, because that in their opinion there is a safer way or, indeed, perhaps because they do not understand).

John

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[Violetta]

Rehabilitation?

'Fraid not. I have made no comment about your general experience (that's what you are reading in to my posts) - just the fact (an obvious fact) that this particular (very useful) technique is outside your experience - and, to judge from your comments, your understanding of it seems to be very limited. So your opinions on this topic don't count for much in my book. On many others, I have no doubt that you possess the wisdom of Solomon!

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[Violetta]

Give the Stinkie a biscuit!

You are nearly right - except the sail is not to "steady" so much as to counteract bow windage. Not sure if stinkies do that too - turn resolutely downwind, especially when going astern with low revs. Propulsion has nothing to do with it - just changing the turning characteristic of the boat. Very reliable way of helping the engine turn the boat upwind in a short space and useful in many more situations than just in a marina.

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Rehabilitation?

What a real pity because I was trying to make friends.

But there you go again making assumptions about peoples' experience, even to the extent of saying that "it was an obvious fact" that the technique is outside of my experience.

How do you know it is so? Presumably you can only know (sic) that on the simple basis that I hold a different opinion on it than you.

I am tempted to say that everything I believe which is different to your beliefs is because you do not have any experience in them, but I would rather not be so foolish. Have better things to do, see you at sea sometime.

John

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[Violetta]

Turning on the anchor

Now that really would have to be an emergency! Don't fancy it with a 35 lb bower and the smaller kedge lives in the locker. But, like any trick of the trade, worth knowing about, none the less, in case that emergency should arise. I did have to use it once, many years ago, when I unknowingly sailed a Blackwater sloop with a Stuart Turner engine into a place that turned out to be a dead end (in Brightlingsea Harbour) Worked a treat.

Many boats have rigid boom struts so could use a topping lift to hoist a jib. However, there's a world of difference between the routine use of the mizzen (familiar to most who regularly sail two masted rigs, as has been my lot for most of my sailing career) and the unusual business of hoisting a jib on the backstay. I've seen such things done in France though, where many still try to minimise engine dependence. (I used to hang out with the Centre Nautique de Glenans sometimes and it was almost a religion with them) Always remember one chap backing out of a raft, using a small spinnaker set astern.....Now that WAS for propulsion and was managed camly and perfectly. Good to watch


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[Robin]

Now you DO deserve a biscuit!

Good here isn't it! As long as you agree you are wise and experienced, probably trained by Noah (did the Arc have handling problems?), disagree though and you are obviously inexperienced and therefore not qualified to comment!

They may be right and there is no risk whatever and they can pull off such a move with 100% success 100% of the time. The fact is that THEY are VISITORS and will create concern amongst the regular residents, to my mind this is inconsiderate.



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[Violetta]

But I\'m right, aren\'t I?

You have never given the slightest hint that you are speaking from experience and neither have you contradicted me when I have suggested - twice - that the technique is "outside your experience". I would find it distinctly fishy if you changed your tune now!

However, if I am wrong, why not tell us about it? I would be fascinated to learn how you set about it and why you found it so difficult and dangerous that you drew the conclusions you have set down here. Maybe we could give you a few tips! Or maybe you were just doing it to show off and feel ashamed of yourself......



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[Twister_Ken]

Re: Now you DO deserve a drink.

Robin,

I'm with you most of the way on this, but your concern that VISITORS might do this tends a little towards xenophobia. Presumably it wouldn't be so bad if berth holders did it? But hold on a mo; in the case of your mangled ladder, it wasn't done by a visitor, but by fellow club members. And worse still, they appear not to have hoisted a jib up the backstay.

From my p-o-v, my boat lies on a pontoon in narrow part of the river, just before a bridge below which masted boats do not go. I am on my boat on its mooring for no more than a hour or two a week. If fellows are zooming up the river and doing three-point turns close to Indigo I have no way of knowing about it. I just have to trust to their skill, and/or their fenders. Otherwise, I'd never sleep.

My recommendation is a long, cool drink. I shall offer to buy you one next time I'm in Poole.



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[Robin]

Glenan Handling Under Sail

I too spend have spent a lot of time in waters around Glenan, including 5 nights there at anchor last month. They are very good at handling under sail, though nowadays the engine is running too in neutral, but I have also seen more than a few cock ups and these days their boats are well mannered modern designs for the most part. I have also seen some brilliant handling of some of their big old restored working boats like the resident ones in Camaret and Morgat, but they take them alongside quays and or hammerheads in open spaces, not down narrow dead ends in the marinas proper.

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[Jacket]

<visitor with a difficult to handle boat has entered a blind alley that he may not get out of unless resorting to storm jib/mizzen>

Thats the same thing as saying that you wouldn't be happy if a visitor enetred a blind alley that he couldn't get out of without using a rudder!

Worse, in fact. A storm jib is hoisted before you go in, does nothing other than provide a bit of windage (as does a spray hood- maybe they should be banned in marinas as well?) and doesn't have to be touched. Whereas with a rudder you actually have to do something with it, making it much more dangerous.

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[Robin]

Re: Hogwash

Yes is the short answer but it needs qualification.

You will know that your mobo gets blown sideways by the wind, so too do raggies but the underwater shape and above waterline profiles mean that some, mostly the so called traditional types have bigger problems and can be very reluctant to turn into the wind or to reverse in any kind of predictable way.

Adding windage aft is akin to fitting a stern thruster. Unfortunately it cannot be switched on and off in the same manner.

All things are relative. Even a mobo will sail downwind if there is enough of it. Hence do not claim there is no drive from a sail just because it is at the back end instead of the front! If there is no wind, it is like a 4x4, 4 times nothing is still nothing. If there is a lot of wind (which is when such boats have the most trouble in confined spaces) then there IS drive enough to make the aft sail work to help swing the bows but there IS drive enough for forward motion too - just like it moves your mobo. Quick and competent handling by a practiced crew would make this work most of the time - probably. I don't think Berthon Marina and Lymington Yacht Haven though would be too keen to see some of the Solent yotties practicing this in amongst their expensive collection of customer's boats, nor too would I in mine in Poole, this is my point.

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[Robin]

Read the whole post

You took a selective part of my post, you will see that Twister Ken when faced with the same choice called the berthing master and was re-allocated an easier berth. Result happy bunnies all round, now wasn't that a better idea? If no easier berth were available then probably he would have been offered help ashore, how much better than risking angering the locals?

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[Jacket]

Re: Read the whole post

You must be very lucky with your marina. While my boat is relatively easy to manouver, it doesn't believe in stopping, and I also sail solo, so if its blowing I ask for an easy berth, or help in berthing.

A lot of marinas say "tough", or promise help which never turns up. In these cases you end up stuck down a dead end. So isn't it better that even if you're expecting help, you have the boat rigged up so that you can turn it and get out again if necessary? I'd have thought that that was just good seamanship?

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[Robin]

Re: Now you DO deserve a drink.

Ken

I wouldn't be keen on berth holders doing it but at least they would do so knowing the berth and the problems, it would not be a speculative peep up a dead end by a stranger who with respect is there by kind invitation not paid-up right.

It was a club boat, with a mix of people on board being taught by the RYA Yachtmaster Instructor and no, thankfully they didn't have any sail up the back or the damage might have been more extensive! Although a local boat, there were different people trying it each time and it was not the boat's regular berth, the school provided the teacher, the club provided the boat and the berth. They have not done it again since....

Ta muchly for the drink offer.

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[Robin]

GK 24\'s

Your GK is about as manouverable as it gets, at 24ft it could turn it's way out of most dead ends without having to do a 3 point turn. I assume though the lack of brakes means you have an outboard? The kind of boat I have in mind is somewhat bigger, will not turn, will not reverse, and is probably almost as long as the gap between the pontoons (see the pics in Sailing Today), there is therefore no margin for error. I would like to bet that YOU wouldn't think of taking that down a blind alley any more than I would, others apparently think I am being unreasonable.

Yes our marina is helpful, it is club owned and the berthing master often greets arriving boats to help without being asked, if they have radioed ahead as requested. In difficult cases he has asked members to lend a hand too which we are glad to do.

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[Jacket]

Re: GK 24\'s

I wish it was as manouverable as you think!

Its an inboard with folding prop. Needs a boat length and a half to stop if travelling forwards at 1 knot, and needs to reverse for about 3 boatlengths before coming even close to being under control. Its mainly down to a rubbish prop. Its also got a very shallow hull forwards, so suffers quite badly in a crosswind. I've handled 32 footers that I'd happily take into smaller spaces than I'd take the GK singlehanded. And I have to do 3 point turns in spaces that the bav 32 opposite can turn in easily.

But yes, in most cases its fine. But sailing singlehanded, if its an akward berth and its blowing F6 or above, I need help getting into the berth safely. The number of times I've been promised help thats never turned up, or arrived 10 minutes after I've berthed means I'll never totally rely on outside help. That was my point.

Not seen the pictures in ST, but possibly they are doing the turn in a smaller space than most people would consider to show just what can be done?

And while I'd never push it, yes, I would (and have) taken unmanouverable boats into small spaces. But only in i know the boat, and are happy handling it.

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[Robin]

Big French Sailboats a PS

The one that works out of Morgat/Camaret has a neat trick of coming in to the port side of the quay and making a hard turn to starboard to park port side to ready to leave. The huge bowsprit makes a wide scythe across the quay when this is done (hopefully no bodies in the way). On one occasion though he must have got his tide calcs wrong, the bowsprit didn't have the customary few inches clearance and there was an awful graunching noise as the rounded bottom of the bowsprit was sanded flat on the stone quay, the sheer weight/momentum of this goliath would not allow the turn to stop.

Neat tricks look clever when they work, less so when they don't!

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