Manouvres In Tight Spaces

[Twister_Ken]

Drive from a back-to-front storm jib?

Ah, maybe this is the problem. While undoubtedly a mizzen on a ketch or yawl can produce drive - that, after all is what it is there for - it doesn't invarably do this if it is undersheeted, scandalised, etc. Accept of course that your fully battened mizzen was different kettle of horses, fully battened sails can be difficult to depower.

But the case in point is surely a jib, hoisted on a backstay. I find it difficult to see how that can produce anything but drag (sideways or backwards) - it could only ever be a driver under the most bizarre circumstances like deliberately trying to sail backwards.

I can quite easily conceive that it would spin the stern downwind faster than the bow was blowing off downwind, thus turning the boat into the wind. But I don't see how it would do this without a deal of sliding sideways as the stern tries to go to leeward faster than the bow. So it wouldn't be a trick to try once you were right down the end of a cul-de-sac (arse-of-bag I think if you go back to the original French).

As a technique, I think it would be about as useful as the proverbial teapot au chocolat in the situation proposed by ST. As a trick to round up into a strong wind to pick up a mooring it might have value.

I can think of one time when I might have used it. Was trying to park a great white whale (Jeanneau Sun Oddity 42) stern to in a med marina. One with lazy lines. Strong wind blowing straight over the bow. As I slowed down to approach the pontoon, the bow kept trying to overtake the stern. Couldn't drop back on a hook, because of all the lazy line blocks and chains on the sea floor. And no boats either side to moor against while we sorted everything. In the end I gave up and parked bows first which left us with a somewhat undignified scramble from a low pontoon onto and off of a very high bow. Now, a scrap of sail flying from the backstay might have helped there.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Robin]

Re: GK 24\'s

No you cannot rely on outside help that's for sure, a nice bonus if it turns up though and it surely should if it were specifically requested and promised.

We have a Brunton Autoprop, 3 bladed self pitching and feathering. Contrary to the ads it does have prop walk astern (I actually find that useful at times) and you have to use quite a few revs (like a folder) to get the blades to a pitch where they do something. Thereafter you can reduce the revs to tickover even if required, takes a bit of getting used to after the big fixed 3 blader on our last boat, it does provide good brakes though with a lot of revs to reverse/pitch the blades. In your case I might consider reversing down the alley, setting it up in clear space outside first? A bit like chosing a weekend destination, I prefer to do the hard (upwind) bit first so the return is not stressful just because the wind has gone up a couple of notches from the forecast.

Do look at the ST pics, many of the people commenting here clearly haven't. Ist pic is of 'Kestrel' with a jib up the backstay and the 2nd crewman (2 on board total) on the topping lift used as the halyard (boom is on the deck). The sail is very definitely filled with wind and pulling, not sheeted hard in on the centreline, and looks like it could do very well as reverse gear, in fact at first glance Kestrel looks like she is going the other way. Other pics show a Rival 34 (surely not a problem boat?) and another a ketch with red mizzen turning in so little wind I doubt any effect from the mizzen, good or bad. I certainly wouldn't be concerned at the Rival coming in by me, probably not the red mizzened ketch either but Kestrel with a sail set as illustrated would have me reaching quickly into the fender locker. Talking of fenders, the boats illustrated have no fenders out for the most part, Kestrel has but one, right forward, the Rival also just one and the red mizzened ketch has none at all, bit like the old marching song really. Presumably fendering is something Mr Goode thinks is best left to the resident berth holders.

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[Jacket]

Re: GK 24\'s

Yes, I definately need a different prop, both for better manouvering, and to get more power out of the engine when motoring into a chop. Once again, its a question of cost, and needing to buy other things more urgently.

Is the Kestrel in question wooden, about 40 foot, with long overhangs? If so, i saw then berthing in Ocean Village (I think it was) a few years ago, using a sail on the backstay and two long sweeps. Very impressive.

If there's two crew on board, both experienced, is there a problem with using the sail as a reverse gear? I'd have thought it might be more reliable than using the engine on a long keeler, as you don't have prop walk problems?

Now that you mention the pictures, I did see them briefly when flicking through the magazine in the newsagents. Don't remeber the picture of Kestrel or the ketch, but do remember the one of the Rival (it was turning between two finger pontoons, wasn't it?). I agree that the space was tight, but there were no moored boats, and weren't they using the photo to demonstrate just how tightly the boat can be made to turn, rather than suggesting you should try it yourself?

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[Robin]

Re: Drive from a back-to-front storm jib?

You are right, fully battened sails do not easily de-power. Motorsailing, if you watch the log you can see the FB main have an effect from almost the minute the battens are settled one side of centre. When I first had a FB main I lost concentration and wondered why the boat had slowed, actually we were at 20 degs to the wind and I hadn't noticed the whole genoa lifting because the main was still working, we had just lost a bit of speed.

I tend to agree about the sideways slider in a French boulder filled cul de sac, such places are on my avoid list. Yes the drag would be sideways or backwards, but boats can hit you with either end or side, not just the pointy bit.

Don't know what to suggest re the Sun Oddity 42, we have a 43 DS a few berths down which regularly reverses into his berth without difficulty at all, but he has got a bow thruster and this is his first sailboat, previously owned big powerboats. Commercial vessels in Fowey used to reverse by dragging an anchor just touching the bottom to keep the bows straight, so maybe a weight would work if you had one heavy enough, how about a scuttlebutter of choice on a length of nylon?

I think I will give up soon, the 100 post mark has gone and I'm getting tired!

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[Robin]

Re: GK 24\'s

That sounds like the one, pretty boat. Nice handling in a home berth where it was undoubtedly practiced first many times in good conditions. Not good practice though surely to go up a narrow blind alley on spec as a guest in a marina with a bit of wind blowing and lots of boats parked close by. Much better surely to ask for an easy berth and some shoreside help, if not there are other options, here in Poole there are 3 more marinas to ask apart from ours at Parkstone, 2 more again through the bridge, plus an alongside berth at Poole Quay, or there is the anchoring option with lots of nice spots. By the way, how did they handle the two long sweeps, the wheel, the engine, the storm jib lines and halyard with just 2 on board?

You can often find a secondhand prop cheaply if you know the size/type required, why not try an ad on the wanted forum? I think I even have a 2 bladed fixed one somewhere from 3 boats back, was on a Liz 30 with Bukh 10hp, not sure of the size or if LH or RH.


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[Jacket]

Re: GK 24\'s

Yes, finding a secondhand prop is on my "things to do" list, right after replacing the headlining, ripping out and replacing the electrics, polishing the hull, removing and servicing the engine, finding a young female crew, rebedding the keel, replacing the genoa, fitting new running rigging...........

There were 3 (or maybe 4, can't remember) on board. One on the helm, 2 on the sweeps, storm jib sheeted tight on the centreline.

I was very impressed with the sweep on the bow. Seemed as effective as a bow thruster, and much cheaper.

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[Robin]

Re: GK 24\'s

Of your list of choices I think it might not be 1st on my list either, thinking of which, SWMBO says she will NOT work a sweep on the bow, you can't get good crew anymore. I blame a labour government.

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[DeeGee]

Interesting thread...

It is a pity that people find themselves adopting such polarised positions.

Where does all this start? From a magazine which, like Sisyphus, has to fill it's pages month after month. What a drag.

John Goode, Tom Cunliffe, Dick Durham, etc do a great job of rehashing the same old stuff, with super illustrations and photos. They clearly make you think about things, and, who knows, they may even add some grain of wisdom to one's existing great grain-store?

Anchors and jibs up back-stays? Why not? Some experimentation on an otherwise dull day, when tides are duff, and not much else to do? Robin seems to be oblivious to the idea that if someone hits his boat, then the someone's boat also gets hit - the idea of these little experiments is to do them slowly and with plenty fenders, surely? And if, as a result, in some unfortunate circumstance, one can pull a trick out of the grain-store - having practiced it before (!) - all the better.

I have pretty much mastered my bitch, but when I call up a marina, as a stranger, and get some stupid moron giving me a hopeless task, and assuring me that there is plenty of room to turn (when there isn't) - I might be glad to try something a bit unusual.

And what if your something fails, and you have to find new ways to control things - no, there is no hammerhead or easy alongside available! - surely this sort of playing about might yeild some dividend then?

I have no connection with John Goode, never done a course with the Southern Sailing School, but I think the cruel jibes in your posts do not become you, nor this forum.

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[Violetta]

Re: Big French Sailboats a PS

Robin - I think you should just try it some time. Not a jib on the backstay - an ordinary small ketch with a little sail aft (not a lot - I rarely use the whole sail when using the mizzen to back safely out of our berth with the wind in certain quarters. A partially hoisted sail is usually quite adequate) I think you might learn that it is NOT an unreliable, flashy, "clever trick" but a simple, standard, effective procedure that anyone with a basic understanding of sail balance can learn to use.

The sail has NO forward drive when used in this way. It pivots us into the wind and holds us there. It is no less predictable and reliable than the rudder (a lot more so when going astern at low revs, when the rudder is useless) and it can be depowered (from it's turning mode) at any time, quickly and easily.

Perhaps your disbelief stems from having a fully battened sail, where this isn't the case. With such a sail, I would probably modify my approach. But fully battened mizzens are outside my experience, so I hesitate to pronounce on them.

Your obsession with the idea of going down blind alleys is irrelevant. It isn't wise to do this in a space you can't turn in unless you know you can steer astern. Many long keeled boats can't. However, paradoxically, that is one situation where ours can and will steer astern - because of the bow windage effect. However, my problem would come when I got out of the alley and then had to turn into the wind. Bring on the mizzen! You use these techniques when you need them, not as substitutes for ordinary common sense.

It's a useful bit of technique to have up your sleeve, whether for routine use or in an emergency. Routinely, I use it when backing out from a berth when the wind is blowing from the beam or the quarter and away from the entrance. The engine controls how far I back out and the mizzen controls the turn. I can go just as far as I want and turn her on a sixpence. Alternatively, I use warps when it's convenient - but in our home berth it isn't - for reasons that I won't bore you with (but would make your hair stand on end even more) Also, warps can be worrying with inexperienced crew (or no crew), no shore helpers and props waiting to gobble them up. This (one novice crew, no-one about on shore) plus an unfriendly wind, was exactly the situation last time I took the boat out.

The idea that I should handle our boat less safely and with less control than I know is possible for fear of alarming the natives is, to me, ridiculous.

I love watching skilled boat handling under sail or power - and I see cockups in both camps. I make a few myself - as you have said you do too. So should I get out the fenders when I see you coming with your big, powerful engine?

But here we are NOT talking about "handling under sail". We are talking about handling under power with a bit of added help to turn. I suspect, with some actual experience of doing this, you might change your opinion. But I bet you wouldn't tell us!

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Violetta on 10/09/2003 16:28 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Robin]

What cruel jibes?

I take it that I can put you down as not on my side then?

OK I have a different view to you and some others, almost all of whom admit to having difficult to handle boats. Therefore phrases like polarised, oblivious, blinkered etc are aimed at me because my views do not agree with theirs or their arguments were not sufficient to change my view.

Last time I looked, and despite the best efforts of TB and cronies, this is a free country, I do not have to agree with you or you with me.

Excuse me too, if someone damages my boat and therefore his at the same time, I will NOT have any sympathy for his problem. That is like feeling sorry that the mugger who hit you hurt his knuckles doing it - stupid or what (oh dear sorry, that was a cruel jibe!)

I think an attitude that calls berthing masters or staff 'stupid morons' is very likely to find you the worst berth available or none at all. Black lists do exist, official or otherwise.

It is no ones fault but yours that you chose to buy (your words) a 'bitch' of a boat. Personally I have a delightful, lovely, sweet handling beauty that I love, I do not want her hurt by some unmanageable bitch, I don't think that is at all unreasonable.







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[Violetta]

Re: What cruel jibes?

Oh, dear me! Dee Gee has one of the most beautiful and desireable sailing/seaboats around today. I know because I've been aboard her. She's a smasher!

Most long keeled boats - including, I imagine, the Rival 34 - and certainly a lot of classics like Contessas, Twisters, Rustlers etc. (not to speak of our own dear old girl) have the same problem with bow windage and steering astern. Better get 'em all out of the marinas pronto before they do yet MORE damage! ;-)

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[DeeGee]

Re: What cruel jibes?

No, it is not only directed at you, it is directed at Violetta and one or two others as well, I suppose - for getting stuck into a 'position' and being welded to it. I know 'V' personally, and like her immensely, but she, like you, gets stuck out on a limb and keep digging, if I can mix my metaphores!

Yes, you are right about us all living with our choices, and sometimes, in marinas - manoeuvring or even just trying to share space with a couple of friend - I wish I had a more modern type of boat rather than traditional. When I am caught out for hour after hour in a gale or more, I rejoice in my choice. So it is definitely horses for courses.

I used the phrase stupid moron to describe a particular idiot in Suffolk, who did exactly what I described. I always assume that HM's are knowledgeable guys, knowledgeable about their harbour or marina, and knowledgeable about boats and the effects of wind etc. It is unfortunate that you chose to insult me and my intelligence by suggesting that I would use such a phrase when in communication with said hm. Even if I spoke to the same one, I would be just as courteous, just temper his wisdom with a large pinch of salt.

My bitch is a wayward beast, and would be far superior to most in a straight line, going forwards (she will hold her line at 0.5kts in F4/5, does yours?) but the down side is certainly her performance backwards. That is not, as you seem to imply, synonymous with bumping into peoples boats. I have never hit a boat or wall or whatever. I often make contact with pontoons other boats etc via fenders.

I don't expect you to agree with all my views in life, but strangely, reading your posts, you seem to be wanting it the other way round, despite strongly saying you don't - you argue a point and argue the point and keep on arguing it. There is no give or take, no clear understanding of the other's point of view. It is a pity that they are not helping by doing somewhat the same themselves.

It is probably true that most people one gets into a spat on SB with, are usually just the sort of people that you actually get on with face to face over a pint.

Keep smiling.


<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[Mirelle]

My boat is Unsafe in Marinas!

She has a long keel, an ancient engine of, allegedly, 15 ponypower, driving an offset propeller through a gearbox which sometimes sticks, she weighs ten tons and has a twelve foot bowsprit. Were she to come into contact with an AWB, the consequences might well be very expensive.

I very seldom take her into a marina! Indeed, unless I can get some sense that whoever-I-am-talking-to in the marina office understands what I am talking about
(if they do, the result is usually a suggestion that we go on the hammerhead!)
I will not risk it. If they do understand the situation, and we have to go inside, we do so at low speed and use warps.

I am not sure that I have suffered very much from this. She's perfectly safe for the rest of the time. If He had meant us to use marinas, he would not have given us the CQR!

More generally, I am bored to tears with articles about handling boats in marinas.

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[Robin]

Re: Big French Sailboats a PS

Ok Ok OK, I give in, surrender, legs in the air (not a pretty sight).

I had a W33 Ketch for 14 years, half of these with a standard mizzen, half with a FB one. The FB one was difficult to de-power, yes. The other would have worked as you say, yes I did try it but not in the marina quite simply because in those days I was on a mooring. Fact is the W33 behaves quite nicely without this kind of help anyway.

My obsession with blind alleys is twofold:-

1) The ST article is written around them and in using this technique to get out of them

2) This is where unhandy boats get into trouble and generally where accidents are most likely. My berth was in such a spot (2nd finger from dead end) when hit and remember by a boat with 6 people on board, fenders out and a so-called expert in charge. We were still damaged.

At last though you agree with me in part too 'It isn't wise to do this in a space you can't turn in unless you know you can steer astern. Many long keeled boats can't.' That is exactly what I have been trying to say by 'If in doubt, stay out'. This is where I came in, this is the essence of my argument, if you don't get into troublesome dead ends, you won't need special tactics to help you get out, emergency tactics by all means, but used as a routine not in my book.

I have no argument that it works, only really with the premise that if you can use such techniques you can go into places where otherwise it might be foolish.







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[Robin]

Re: My boat is Unsafe in Marinas!

Wow someone with common sense! And yes I agree about the articles, first in PBO then repeated in ST.

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[Robin]

Re: What cruel jibes?

Contessa's and Rival 34's round here are well behaved, maybe they don't like the east coast? Our previous berth is now occupied with a nice Rustler 36, 2nd finger from the dead end, no problems apparently going in or out and no bow thruster and no add-on sails.

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[colinF]

Re: What cruel jibes?

Out on a limb? Violetta's right about using the mizzen and I sympathise with her greatly. As a two masted sailor myself I know what she means and I think all this stuff about being irresponsible, showing off, being a danger to other marina users etc. is well out of order. Like Mr. Wright, I think she has been patient and moderate in her response to these comments about what is, after all, an aspect of boat handling that is quite standard in two masted rigs. I use it myself and have no problems with it. Don't knock it until you've tried it!


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[peterb]

Rival 34

I used to sail a Rival 34 (on the South Coast!). I reckoned that the prop walk was such that the boat would turn through at least 45 degrees befoe I could get proper control when going astern. Fine if you were ready for it, but........

 

[Robin]

Re: What cruel jibes?

OK you are right. I certainly do keep arguing the same point because the opposition does exactly the same, it is after all part of the fun. I don't intend to be rude though and I do accept there are different views, otherwise we would all have the same kind of boat, house, wife, job et al.

Yes our sweet sailer will go at 0.5kts in a crosswind, easy peasy with the wheel locked straight ahead (otherwise propwash could move the rudder). I have done this often to go below and switch on something I'd forgotten. We have a deep keel (6'10" in old money) and not too short, with a big rudder. We've only had a short lived gale so far, downwind Cherbourg to Poole and we had full sail until the tide turned against the wind and the pilot started getting confused on the waves, I put 3 reefs in all in one go though and we were still able to make 9kts, real yee ha stuff. The previous owners did the AZAB and say she goes upwind well in F8 with the staysail (we have an extra cutter stay & runners) and triple reefed main, I'm not in a big hurry to verify it.

LOL and happy sailing





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[Neal]

Robin, you have told us...

1) that you have not tried using a jib hoisted on a backstay

2) that you find, for whatever reason, John Goode's articles to be too complex, so that you soon lose interest in them.

Despite this, you are adamant that such techniques should not be used near your boat.

To me this sounds like a closed mind, and ignorance, of this particular subject matter.

Fo reasons we need not bother with here, I have two boats right now.....an old long keeled gaff cutter, and a mid 1970s fin and skeg type half tonner. I know the handling of each very intimately and, no surprise, I need to use different handling techniques for each, but, please believe me, if you see me coming into a marina near you, the risk of me colliding with you is the same regardless of which boat I'm in (ie minimal - fingers crossed, touch wood etc).

Last month I skippered a Bavaria 41 in Sardinia. Now, not my sort of boat at all, but its manoevrability in a marina left me almost in disbelief. Does that mean it couldn't get into an embarrassing problem? Obviously not....the critical part in any manoevre, is the Crew's ability and their understanding of their particular vessel.

If that understanding calls for techniques that you don't need or understand, fine, but please don't class those of us that do as reckless show offs.

Incidentally, how, exactly, do you decide which neighbour is a danger to you? A Rival 34? A Moody 33? An Invicta? A Bavaria? A Manx Nobby? Again, the important part is the skipper and crew, not the boat.

None of us want the expense, embarrassment, danger and hassle of an 'incident'. It is in all our interests therefore to use techniques that we know to work, even if it causes a few raised eyebrows amongst others. We'd be crazy to do otherewise.



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