Manouvres In Tight Spaces

[Robin]

Re: John Goode

I know, often so complicated in the explanation at least that I lose interest reading them. What worries me is when he comes up with ideas that are risky when put into use by experts and doubly so when being practiced by someone wishing to become expert. Marinas (especially one in which I am berthed!) should be what they are supposed to be, ie safe havens. He can play at parking and unparking by whatever method he choses but please do not do it near other boats and especially mine. In my experience sailing schools rarely do these tricks at their home base unless an area is cleared first for them, all the practicing is done elsewhere, I suspect because they do not want trouble at home. I have seen them chased away from other places by harbourmasters who presumably felt they constituted a threat or annoyance too.

John Goode's ideas should often come with a health warning - DO NOT TRY THIS NEAR OTHER BOATS.




<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Chris_Robb]

Robin - the mizzen on most ketches provide bugger all drive. I often leave it up untill manouvers are completed as it just balances the boat up and makes it easier to handle. So don't worry too much! In fact about the only time I ever use the mizzen is as a survival sale or as a manouvering aid. B waste of time other wise - though mizzen mast usefull to hang things on - Radar - wind generator - radar reflector = mizzen stays'l etc.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[ianwright]

Spot on!

Auntie Vi,
Nice try, well said,,,,,, and I admire your patience.
How about lending you skills of persuasion to the "learn to navigate, you pillock!" campaign for the education of those who took up sailing post the advent of electronic position fixing?

IanW


<hr width=100% size=1>Vertue 203, Patience

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: John Goode

You're right. If I read something with a title like 'harness the power of propwalk' once more I'm going to fall dead asleep!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Robin]

Chris

The article included use of a storm jib on the backstay or use of a mizzen, it did not say only do this if your mizzen or storm jib actually provide no drive. Actually the pics illustrating his article show the boat being turned with apparently zero wind, so the sail area aft would not have had any effect anyway. One of the boats used is a Rival 34, hardly an example of one needing such tactics. However he mentions being driven into the end of a narrow dead end and bow windage squirting the boat sideways. If there is enough wind to 'squirt a bow' sideways with no sail on it, just the hull profile, then there must be enough wind at the other end of the boat to provide drive into a sail deliberately hoisted there, if there is no wind then there is no effect either end.

On my old boat, W33 Ketch, the mizzen certainly did add drive, especially after I changed it to a fully battened one, otherwise why bother carrying around all that windage? If I hoisted the mizzen head to wind on an anchor and had it sheeted in, the boat only had to yaw just a little and she was moving forward over the chain - ie there WAS drive. If I were making a turn in the alley from downwind back into the wind there would certainly be drive enough when the boat came round at 90 degs, and therefore pointing directly at the boats in their berths, quick crew work letting sheets go/scandalising whatever might help, but my crew is me and SWMBO, I would prefer one was helming/operating the engine and the other was ready with lines or to fend off/hold on as required not messing around at the back 40 ft away from the bit that might hit something!

The article goes on to say 'Watch out for turning on an anchor and other useful marina anchoring tips later in the series'. Wow, now the guy is going to be dropping anchor between the pontoons, that should really make for relaxed crews on nearby boats!

Narrow alleys with dead ends in marinas are no place for unhandy boats unless there is a known space to go into, going down one on speculation is not good seamanship and with a tailwind as well is downright crazy.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Violetta]

Thanks, Ian

I have grown weary of this silliness from people who judge and condemn from a position of ignorance and inexperience. On the subject of navigation - I read a post on CWWB that said anyone who claimed they could navigate without GPS was talking boastful rubbish! I wonder how he thought we all arrived where we were headed in those days? Hope you enjoyed your trip to Holland this year.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Twister_Ken]

Actually, what the article doesn't say is that even boats that are not happy going astern in a straight line can generally be controlled going astern if the wind is over the stern by the following method.

1) While still drifting ahead, steer the boat to the opposite side of the alley to the way the stern kicks when reversing (if it kicks to the right, go to the left side of the alley.)
2) Go astern. The boat will kick its stern to the right and will build up some astern speed.
3) Go neutral. The boat will have stern way and without prop kick will be steerable. Keep steering astern and back towards the left hand side (in this example) of the alley.
4) When boat speed drops and you lose steerage way, repeat the process.

That way you can reverse in a series of s-bends. Not quick or pretty, but reliable. Gets more fun when the wind is on the beam or the bow!


<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Twister_Ken]

The bad ol\' days

On that subject it's amazing how paranoid people get nowadays if they don't know where they are to within 50 metres. Used to be we'd be really pleased if we arrived somewhere after a non-coastal passage within binocular-sight of the buoy we were aiming for. In those days on a channel crossing, I would plan to arrive 5 miles uptide of my destination, because the chances of arriving with your target dead on the nose were so poor it was 50/50 you'd end up downtide and stuffed.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[ianwright]

Yes thanks,,,,,,

Holland was fine, even though I found it with the aid of gps and a Yeoman and my close quarter boat handling let me down a little,,,,,,,,,,
You're in contact with the same small brains as I have been. They cannot believe that pen and pencil navigation works. Clearly I must be lying when I claim to sail 100 miles to Holland and find lock gates 50ft wide, he said ,,,,,,,,,,
I used to explain, not any more, it got repetitious. Same with flags, anchor lights, gaff rig, wooden built boats, sextants, Morse,,,,,, OK even I don’t use Morse any more,,,,,,, I can (just) send it, but is there anyone watching who can read it,,,,,,,?
Ah well, just look at what they are missing. Pity really.
IanW


<hr width=100% size=1>Vertue 203, Patience

 

[Violetta]

Ah....

To make a lovely, lovely Twister do your bidding going backwards. Now there is an art I would like to mistress! I've tried all these kinds of thinks with our boat, however, but still cannot trust her to behave except when going staight into the wind. She's incorrigible.

Last thrilling Twister experience - taking one into a crowded lock at Shotley with a gutsy force 7 up my stern and a (woman) crew suffering from a frozen shoulder. Time I went Twisting again, I think.........

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Violetta]

No, you never!

Navigating without GPS? That is very irresponsible of you! Go stand in the corner...;-)

Glad it was good. Saw you and Mirelle in the ECOGA race, incidentally. Looking good. Pity about the Sunbeam - when they came back they look like the proverbial ailing parrots!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Robin]

We have a very manouverable boat but still set up at an angle before reversing to counteract prop walk, but once moving we can do more or less anything required. I have seen something similar to your Twister method used and as you say, not elegant but it works. I still think the advice for the real baddies is if in doubt stay out, but if they must go into a confined space why not try and reverse IN if they fail nothing is lost, if they succeed and have to come out then they can. We quite often reverse down between pontoons in narrow alleys if we are hunting a spot (Concarneau is a good example, it is very narrow in the visitor's area and most of the boats in berths are biggish and/or have dinghies on davits), it allows us to do the initial angled set-up in more space.





<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Guest]

Agreed again ....

If its tight ..... warp in ..... warp out. That way you don't take such high uncontrolled risk.

If you need a sharp turn ..... throw a bight over the cleat at end of pontoon and spring her round...... if you need to get bow / stern round sharpish to exit ...... slack down a 'looped' spring at required end until sufficient length then hold ..... when completed let go and bring in warp.....

I think anyone observing good use of warps etc. will a) generally offer assistance, b) respect the prudent seamanship displayed.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Reap]

Tried staying out of this one, but I am forced to make comment.
Im afraid to say it shows just how blinkered some views are!!
Robin for one, wake up and try actually absorbing what people are telling you!!

You keep harking on about irresponsible people using a sail up the backstay or a mizzen in a tight space in a marina. Just read what people are trying to tell you!!

The sail up the backstay used like this PROVIDES NO DRIVE and so is exactly the same as coming in under engine only, except that it helps the turn as it can neutralise windage on the bow.
Practised by somebody who knows what they are doing this is a good technique and a safe one.
In fact its a damn site safer than somebody who hasnt got a clue how to moor a boat entering a marina in the conventional engine only method.

I dont think anybody (John Goode included) is advocating coming into a marina with a load of sail up, if you dont know how to do it safely and haven't practised it.

Practice is required for any technique of mooring. And on that note I believe you said you objected to schools practicing in marinas. Well how exactly do you expect anybody to learn how to park safely if they can't practice.
Firstly any school will teach a student in a safe (empty hammerhead) place, and slowly build up to more difficult marina berths.

How did you learn exactly? More dangerous would be the idiot who has never berthed before but brings her in on a wing and a prayer near to your boat I think.

Given that attitude, nobody would learn to drive cars either...after all where do they practice parking? On the road thats where and in tight spaces too. But only after lots of practice somewhere quiet. Exactly the same as sailing schools.

But no!....perhaps I am wrong... perhaps we should ban everything we don't understand.
Lets ban the use of a sail in any circumstances in marinas...lets ban navigation without gps, after all traditional navigation is terribly dangerous these days isnt it?
Lets ban handgliding, because thats dangerous and I don't do it and I don't understand how the damned things stay in the air and its a minority sport so nobody will miss it except a few highly skilled hanglider pilots, but who cares about them anyway!!!!!

Sorry to rant /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yacht-links.net>http://www.yacht-links.net</A>

 

[Violetta]

Give that man a biscuit!

Nice to know that you and a few others in this thread actually do understand the purpose of this simple, routine manoeuvre, the issues involved and the way it is done.......Not exactly rocket science, is it?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Neal]

Eloquently put....

the closed minds and ignorance shown here are scary.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: Yes thanks,,,,,,

Hi Ian - Tend to agree with what you say (except the "small brains" bit). Also, perhaps, gives the opportunity to reflect against just the things you mention to show that some other people should not make rash judgements about others' abilities and experience to use as an argument to dismiss their views. I can say: I carry a sextant, can navigate without a GPS, and (Yes) can both send and receive morse too (I am ZL4AJ).

I hope that goes some way towards my rehabilitation with Violetta /forums/images/icons/frown.gif.

John



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Robin]

OK so you disagree, that is your right.

For the record, and you would know this if you had read what I said in all the threads, my previous boat WAS damaged by a sailing school carrying out training in my home marina. They were not using an empty hammerhead, they were down in the dead end with F6 blowing across the alley. They were going in and out of an empty berth on the windward side, my berth was on the other side and opposite, the other berths (both sides) were occupied as well. If you are interested I will send you a PM to tell you which sailing school, the Poirots amongst you may already have guessed. They did not have storm jibs up backstays or mizzens set but they did have a fully qualified RYA Yachtmaster Instructor standing at the back giving instruction.

I have no objection to schools practicing in EMPTY parts of marinas if they have the agreement of the marina manager.

I certainly do not want to ban navigation without GPS, or hangliding or even sex between consenting old gaffers.

I certainly do think that when I pay a large amount of money to berth my boat that I should be able to consider it SAFE, whether I am on board or not. With that in mind I would NOT be a happy bunny if a casual visitor with a difficult to handle boat has entered a blind alley that he may not get out of unless resorting to storm jib/mizzen or anchor. Twister Ken had the right idea as a visitor to where I berth, he called ahead and mentioned his boat was difficult, he was then allocated an easier berth than first given, now THAT is sensible and responsible.

I don't go where I cannot get out of so WHY should I be forgiving of someone else who does.

You asked where I learned and it was not at a sailing school. I learned first 42 years ago as a very lowly crew on a Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter (65ft, 35 tons, big bowsprit, no marina berths for her), then on a variety of cruisers starting at 20ft and now at 41ft, after a long apprenticeship racing a variety of dinghies. SWMBO and I have averaged 1500-2000nm pa for the past 15 years in all conditions, before that probably a bit less since the boats were smaller. I am still learning.

As you can see I disagree, that is MY right.











<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Robin]

Truth Will Out

It would be nice if when making scathing comments that you state you are in truth an 'interested party'

Research of your past posts (since your user profile and name keeps you anonymous) shows that you once worked for John Goode at Southern Sailing.

Hardly surprising that you would come out on his side then is it?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Robin]

Hogwash

I do not have a closed mind and am not ignorant, I merely have a different point of view to you. By the by, Mr Reap used to work for John Goode according to a previous post of his so he could either be preaching the party line or perhaps was brainwashed, either way his is not an unbiased view. Now THAT is scary.

<hr width=100% size=1>