Manouvres In Tight Spaces

[Robin]

I have just read the latest Sailing Today which carries a so called 'Masterclass' advocating the use of a storm jib up hoisted up the backstay, or a mizzen reefed if necessary, to help turn an unmanageable boat in a tight marina. A future article will show the use of an anchor too to turn the boat.

Am I the only one who thinks this is irresponsible? In my view if the boat handles so badly it can neither turn in a confined space nor reverse out then it should not have been taken there in the first place. Perhaps a request in advance for an easy access hammerhead berth or if departing some help from marina staff or a workboat might be in order, but antics running up a mizzen 'reefed if neceesary' or a storm jib up the backstay (of course this would be ready in position for such an eventuality wouldn't it?) are a no no in my book. Surely when you have paid a small fortune for a safe and secure marina berth you should not have to worry about possible damage from such a manouvre that has gone badly wrong? Our previous boat had the stern ladder crushed (just 12 hours after launching) when a well known sailing school was teaching marina handling (F6 blowing at the time) in a boat that DID handle well so maybe I am biased. What does the team think?

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[Talbot]

If you have an unmanageable boat, you should be doing something about it (bow thruster /stern thruster etc) and not inflicting your damage on other more responsible owners. I agree that the concept of sails being run up back stays and only used in marinas seems to be irresponsible. The use of an anchor is a different matter (use of an anchor for mediterranean mooring being a necessity) but you had better be prepared to get it fouled (i.e. make sure you have a tripping line)

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[Robin]

The dificulty though is that alleys between pontoons are not very wide, some boats stick out and again my feeling is that if that's the only way to turn it would be better not to go there.

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[pvb]

You\'re right....

Boats which exhibit such poor handling should be treated specially in marinas. All other boats should be sensibly handled. I'm constantly amazed by the antics of supposedly experienced seamen in marinas, especially their poor management of crew members.

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[polarity]

On my 32ft Nantucket Clipper I almost always had the mizzen up, singlehanded, coming into marinas, locks, piles, pontoons etc etc. - unless there was no wind at all.
Far from being iresponsable - it gives you control of the bow of your boat. A boat with a high bow and a cut away forefoot pays off downwind bow first and can be difficult to persuade to turn or point into the wind. - do some of the more modern light, high freeboard yachts have similar problems with breeze on the beam ?.
Simply sheet the mizzen (or manually haul on the boom) and she pivots round her middle. Leave it unsheeted and it lufffs.

Can I ask, have you (and the 2 replies so far) actually tried this? I agree it is a scary prospect when you first think about it, but give it a go and it will give you a whole new confidence in maneuvering. You can turn into wind on the spot.

Paul



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<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.polarity2.com>http://www.polarity2.com</A>

 

[Robin]

Our last boat was a Westerly 33 Ketch and turned nicely unaided especially using the considerable prop kick. With the mizzen set I would be worried about a) turning downwind b) a random effect on boatspeed from the mizzen catching more or less wind.

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[Birdseye]

I agree with you - I have a cat, which is hard to turn in confined spaces, and doesnt have a backstay anyway. Nor could you fit bow or stern thrusters.

The trouble is that most marinas have no vacant hammerhead berths - they're used for v large and expensive boats. So its pot luck, aided by large fenders.

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[Violetta]

Ships is alright.....

It's the men in 'em.......

Whatever the boat, you have to learn how it handles and how to handle it. That might include different tricks for different boats. Polarity, you are spot on - until you have tried it, why condemn the extra manoeuvrability a little bit of controllable windage aft can give? In certain circumstances I always use a bit of mizzen to counteract bow windage when backing out of a marina slot. It's simple and effective. In fact, a two masted rig can make a boat much handier in some circumstances than the equivalent sloop. And many a sloop can be made a lot handier with a bit of extra windage aft at times.

I see far more damage being done by mishandling of "manoeuvrable" modern boats being handled in a cavalier way than by skippers of old timers that have studied the way their boats behave in different conditions and handled them accordingly.



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[Robin]

Presumably you don't have twin inboard engines? I always thought a cat with an engine in each hull was the ultimate for turnability! Mind you I thought powerboats with 2 engines and a bow thruster were in that category until one arrived in the next berth to me, windage is much more of a factor than with a nice deep keel.

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[polarity]

RE and turned nicely unaided especially using the considerable prop kick.

If you can always maneuver perfectly then you dont need it. If you have ever wished you had a big bow thruster you might like to try this instead! ...You might also want to consider this (after some practice!) as very helpful.. if you ever have to turn the other way!

I shared your concerns re a b. With a) you dont use the mizzen, or you scandalise it if you need to and b) was never a problem with the sail luffing= no drive.

The Clipper had a 10HP single cylinder engine so this trick was very usefull whith any sort of wind. No accidents in 2300nm of coast hoping from Barcelona to Poland, singlehanded. Saw the odd one though, usually caused by too many crew in the way!

Paul

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.polarity2.com>http://www.polarity2.com</A>

 

[Robin]

Our current boat (Sun Legende 41) is deep fin with 44HP and a Brunton self pitching prop, despite the blurb the Brunton still gives healthy prop kick astern but she goes astern very well once moving and turns very sharp both ways ahead. Despite that I can still still cock it up occasionally! My concern is that Sailing Today are promoting methods for extreme examples of difficult boats that might work with a well prepared and practiced crew (what happens whilst they learn though?) and I would rather they did that as far away from my boat as possible.

Would those who think such methods OK be so agreeable if the training was going on near their berth, perhaps whilst they were not present, I doubt it!

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[Mudplugger]

If in marinas, then surely long legths of rope are a more effective and much safer option....Like Robin, as an ex W33 sailor did not have a problem, OM636 had lots of grunt and a very useful kick..

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[Robin]

I like rope, it implies gentle controlled movement and the involvement perhaps of helpers ashore!

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[MainlySteam]

Doesn't it get down to a question of power?

In the case of the tight space being a marina - If you have no power you have to sail in (should be banned, in my opinion unless have direct access to a seaward end berth), if you are underpowered, then maybe you need to use some sail and also feel some better responsibility to your fellow marina users and get an outer berth, if you are adequately powered then you don't need sails to manoeuvre.

Having an inadequately powered boat in close quarters in a marina with a good crew is not very different, from a risk point of view, to having an adequately powered boat with a poor crew. Crew being equal, it is usually the underpowered keelboats that I see in trouble against the piles or their neighbours.

Sailing ships used to manage manoeuvring without power in close quarters, but there again they had very big crews to back, fill, spill sails when doing so, and the business of doing so was their life, not a weekend pursuit. There was also no alternative until steam tugs came along - which they then used. They also had their fair share of accidents.

John

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[Amphitrite]

I frequently sail as an officer on big traditional schooners (130 ft.). They tend to handle very poor in tight places, so it is very common to use a jib in front and the mizzen in the rear to turn the ship in port. Actually it is a considered as a normal manoever. I have even seen harbour pilots in Hamburg ordering this kind of manoever.
Holger

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[Birdseye]

Robin - you're correct. We have a single central engine with a steerable leg. Not a bad system, but less handy than twin engines. However, even twins dont help a lot when there is a cross wind. You still drift sideways at a rate of knots.

I find that I have a lot more sympathy for skippers handling motorboats than many of my sailing friends.

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[Robin]

I don't imagine they take those schooners down a narrow blind alley between pontoons full of boats in their berths and do that manouvre though! Yes I can see the benefits and skill in doing this say between big stone quays (quay either side, bridge blocking ahead for example like here in Poole) but not in a confined marina least of all if it not your home base. The article is written for normal yotties presumably with normal ie small numbers of crew and sailing normal yachts albeit of a type that do not turn well and have a mind of their own in reverse. My berth neighbour had such a boat, a Super Sovereign 35 ketch, but he knew it's problems and had a bow thruster fitted before he took up the berth.

Can you imagine the chaos as skipper calls:

'Crew, hoist the storm jib up the backstay!'

Crew replies 'what?', followed by 'where is it?', 'which halyard?', 'where do I shackle it to?'

Skipper 'be quick, we are being driven by the wind into those parked boats!'

I learned to sail on a Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter, 65ft, 35 tons, long keel, girt great bowsprit and a tiny engine which needed much clutch wheel turning to change from ahead to astern, certainly no single lever control. In those days marinas were mostly non existent and she was parked on buoys, anchored or alongside quays, the full crew of 14 helped, and there was assistance from the ship's rigid tender and warps on occasion as well. There is no way that boat would be taken into a modern marina without much prior thought, consultation with the marina and 'tug' assistance in the form of the marina workboats.





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[Violetta]

That\'s the whole point

Planning your manoeuvre. Your caricature is no worse than many of the entertainments we see every day (especially in strong winds) with boats of the type you approve for marinas - unprepared crew, no lines, no fenders etc. But if you know you have to plan - you plan. And you learn to be more aware of the boat's behaviour and the forces that will act on her.

I think the basic fallacy is the idea that using a bit of sail aft is somehow unpredictable and dangerous. If you had tried it and got used to it in your ketch you might have learned that it gives a degree of control which is quite comparable to the effect of a powerful engine or propwalk. You just have to learn to use it - as you do those other forces - as well as the wind and current. Which is where the John Goode article comes in.

Many boats - quite respectable ones - are affected by bow windage and/or won't steer astern. The idea that they should all be fitted with bow thrusters is ridiculous -and for most, impossible (Certainly would be for our old ketch) Engine power and money are not a substitute for seamanship, practice and planning - using warps, sails or whatever is appropriate to the situation. Warps, for example, are helpful for us in an E wind, but not a NE wind. Amongst other things, seamanship is knowing what you can and can't safely do with the specific boat you are sailing.

Our boat has gone in and out of her berth near the dead end of the marina (when she is not on her mooring) quite safely for many years - which is more than can be said for some of our newer neighbours in boats designed with marinas in mind. Usually we have 2 people on board, but when I bring her out alone, or with complete beginners on board it's not a problem. The mizzen topping lift and sheet is to hand and control is quite precise. The amount of sail hoisted varies according to the wind strength, but even the most inexperienced crew can hold onto a halliard and pull when I say pull.

As I said - it's not the boats you need to worry about - it's the people.

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[vyv_cox]

Whatever happened to warping!

Your post echoed mine as I began to read the thread. We learned warping techniques years ago, due to berthing fairly regularly in old, traditional docks, particularly Port Dinorwic. Turning a boat in a space only just long enough for her length offers few other options. Taking a boat from an inside position in a raft of 8 or 10 without asking everybody to disengage similarly requires some knowledge of warping. We continue to use these traditional, safe techniques, often to the amazement of other boat users who seemingly have never even considered this as a possibility.

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[Talbot]

I do agree with this, however I was merely pointing out that there are some circumstances where the use of an anchor may be considered, especially if you have a windlass to assist in pulling the ting up again!!!

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