Manouvres In Tight Spaces

[MainlySteam]

Re: Better not come to Maldon

<<< ...is that you don't trust a way of handling a boat that is not part of your own repertoire>>>

No. I think is generally something to do with not trusting cowboys myself.

But perhaps we are talking about different orders of room. If you are talking about waters big enough to rotate a 90 foot barge in with clearance, well I think one could just about use all the sail one wanted - is almost open water for a 40 foot yacht.

John

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[Robin]

Re: Better not come to Maldon

Absolutely, and in the past I have sailed out of Cherbourg Marina from a downwind berth and back to Lymington Yacht Haven and onto a hammerhead when the engine on a chartered ketch failed, but there was a crew of 9, albeit beginners, but able to pull push and fend off when told. I have also sailed a previous Liz 30 back to Poole quay from Cherbourg sans moteur and another friend's boat into Brighton entrance so it could be taken in tow by the marina workboat (sheered propshaft coupling) so I know HOW to handle a boat under sail in a confined space but I choose NOT to as a routine. In these cases it too made others nervous, out on deck in case they needed to fend off, the situations were unusual not routine and I would not suggest anyone did this as part of their normal berth entering procedures! Note in the latter case the marina were advised by radio and the workboat requested, conditions (swell) made them request us to sail into the entrance to aid picking us up on tow, it was 11pm, foggy and mid-January and the unsatisfactory end of a delivery trip. Oh and by the way, after earlier posts on Pan Pans and lifeboats for yachts out of fuel or with defective engines, we DID notify HMCG (NOT Pan Pan) but said we needed no help other than a workboat for the last 25yds, as a sailboat we could still sail.

Being ABLE to do it is not a reason for doing it as a routine, others need to feel their boats are safe in their berths from such goings on.



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[Violetta]

And cowboys are?

People who do things a little differently from yourself? Possibly people with different or greater skills than yourself? On the whole I find people who take the trouble to learn a full range of ways to handle their boats (studying and making friends of the forces acting on them) are less likely to be cowboys than those who rely only on one way and never extend their repertoire.

If you have no experience of sailing with/watching people like the skippers of the Thames barges (especially those without engines) handling them in tight spaces, using wind and tide to achieve what they want, then you probably can't imagine the skill involved. It's of a very different order from your average marina jockey with his big engine. I feel privileged to have both sailed with such people and regularly to have the opportunity to observe this kind of skill in action. Cowboys? Rubbish!





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[Violetta]

You\'ve come a long way

From using a little sail aft when necessary to help turn into the wind (an adjunct to the engine, of course - we were not talking about propulsion) to sailing in and out of marinas without engines. Talk about moving targets........

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[MainlySteam]

Re: And cowboys are?

Your example is irrelevant. The crews of Thames Barges may be considered very skilled at handling their vessels in their own environment, but they would be regarded as foolish if they tried the same thing in tight quarters in a marina full of superyachts. It is all to do with respect for the safety of or for protecting the condition of the boats of others by avoiding unecessary risks. It is also a case of avoiding causing concern to others.

It is not a case of not accepting people doing it differently or one of competence, and it is silly to suggest that when you are in no position whatsoever to make that judgement. It is simply a case of good sense and respect for others.

John

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[Jacket]

Re: You\'ve come a long way

People seem to misunderstand what the sail is for. they have images of it being used to produce drive, when all its being used for is to produce a bit of windage. And if they object to that, maybe they'd better try and ban boats with wheelhouses and dodgers, as they've got even more windage than would be produced by a reefed mizen.

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[Jacket]

Re: And cowboys are?

I'd disagree. You don't see it much in the UK, as we don't have many large sailing boats. But go to somewhere like the Netherlands or Denmark, where they have many large schooners, and you regularly see them being manouvered in tight spaces in amoung expensive yachts, using small amounts of sail and warps to help them turn. And no-one bats an eyelid, because they're used to seeing it done.

On a boat with a lot of bow windage, I'd feel happier seing it enter a marina with a storm jib hoiseted on the backstay and sheeted tight to the centreline so that the boat can manouver, rather than it coming without, such that it can't turn into the wind.

I don't know where the idea of 'messing around with sails' came from. You don't do that at all. You set up the sail, sheeted flat, outside the marina, and it stays there untouched until you're moored. No messing around, and a balanced boat.

Or if you have the crew, and they know what they're doing, they may back the mizen as necessary to help turn the boat. Its simple, provides little forward drive (so there's no chance of it causing you to plow into moored boats) and you can turn quicker than you would otherwise be able to do. What's the problem?

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[Chris_Robb]

Re: Another 2 cents worth

>>It could be argued that out on the trots on a mooring is safer than a marina berth these days - most of the idiots use marinas!! <<

Not sure I agree. I have been hit on my moorings to some extent every year for the last 5 years. This year a something hit me really hard gouging into the fibre glass by 1/2 inch. Good job the hull is thicker than that!

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[Violetta]

Wrong end of the stick?

The Thames barges are not an example of what you should or shouldn't do - but of people doing things that are well within their capabilities but which might alarm others with no experience of doing such things.

What you seem to regard as foolish and irresponsible others (who know what they are doing) will regard as sensible and prudent. What others may regard as "out of control" and "messing around", others (who know what they are doing) may know to be a carefully planned and controlled manoeuvre.

As far as your general skills are concerned, I have no idea and I make no judgement. But Robin has no experience of this type of manoeuvre - he has told us so - and I suspect from your comments that you don't either. It's a bit of boat handling technique that may be outside your experience.

Going to sea in small boats in itself strikes many people as foolish, irresponsible and lacking in consideration for those left ashore. Maybe we should all give up now and buy caravans?

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[Violetta]

Spot on! (nm)

nm

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[Chris_Robb]

Robin - well your post brought out some useful discussion - general feeling I got was that in the right hands it was a usefull tool. All really comes back to skipper competance - plan then organise.



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[Robin]

Re: You\'ve come a long way

Just used that to illustrate that I am not unaware of techniques for manouvering in confined spaces, with or without an engine.

If the mizzen has little drive why bother carry all that weight and windage around? I had a fully battened mizzen on my old boat and it provided plenty of drive.

The illustrations in Sailing today are of a boat being turned in a width between pontoons no wider than the length of the boat. Take a vote of all those who might be in the adjacent berths and see who if any would vote for a visitor coming in and turning as described. I suspect there would be more than a few 'suggestions' as to where they might better pursue their activity. Certainly don't try it near my home berth, I and my neighbours have LOUD voices and would be yelling very smartly to our berthing master on the radio to have you ejected, as a club marina they (mostly) listen to members!

We will have to agree to differ on this. I have a manouverable boat ahead and astern and wouldn't enter a restricted space if I thought I couldn't get out easily, I am lucky that this doesn't often happen, in extreme cases I will reverse in to make an easier exit possible. But the motto must remain IF IN DOUBT - STAY OUT.





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[Robin]

Plan then organise is an excellent method with all boat handling. I still think though that this Sailing Today tactic is not for use in the very tight confines of SOMEONE ELSE'S marina, as a potential visitor surely the aim must be to arrive, stay and depart without giving any concern to any resident and therefore to be welcome again another time. Frightening the pants off locals is not the best way of being unobtrusive and found a berth on a subsequent visit! Twister Ken has the right idea, mention the problem ahead and you will probably find a simpler solution on offer, if not you are least at liberty to then ask for some shoreside help or to decide to go elsewhere, that comes into the 'plan then organise' category I think.





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[Violetta]

Aha!

Fully battened sails - nice for drive (I believe - never sailed with them) but not so easy to de-power (so I'm told), so not so versatile for other purposes, like controlling your windage and steering characteristics. Our mizzen does both - but I am sure it is less effective than yours was as a driver. Swings and roundabouts. Maybe, when we buy new sails for our old boat they will be big roached and fully battened. And, there again, maybe not.

I fully sympathise with your concerns about training and experimentation in close proximity to other boats. I sympathise not at all with your contention that boats that have a hard time steering astern under low revs power, because of bow windage, poor tracking astern etc. should fit bow thrusters if they want to use marina berths - or that using a little wind power to give them the handling characterstics they need is somehow irresponsible behaviour.



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[Robin]

Re: Aha!

Fully battened sails helped give our old W33 a good performance, previously the old mizzen did nothing upwind other than give a little feel to the wheel. They still provide some small drive even very very close to the wind (like 20 degs) and are silent when motor sailing.

I didn't say bow thrusters were essential, I think that was someone else, though I did say our then berth neighbour fitted one. That said I would have one without hesitation if our current boat wasn't so easy to handle. In some places the visitors areas have small, narrow fingers and very tight turns in/out for a boat 41' long with just 2 on board.





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[Badger]

John Goode

He is always coming up with irrelevant ways to park boats, he's been making money out of it for years.Scandalise your main sir ?

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[polarity]

here here!! nm

.......

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.polarity2.com>http://www.polarity2.com</A>

 

[Violetta]

Lion cubs

do irrelevant things like playing with their mothers' tails. Makes them better hunters in the end...

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Wrong end of the stick?

I think you are getting confused between "show off", "prudence" and "necessity" and the distinction between them is an important part of seamanship.

It does not matter how competent someone is at some activity, they are showing off if there is a safer way of doing it or a safer place in which to do it when the results of any misadventure affects others. There is no question that the safest way to manoeuvre a yacht in close quarters is to pin it with power or to pin it artificially with warps. There is no reason whatsoever for any boat to set any sail in a marina or similar situation unless it has no auxiliary power at all (in which case it might be a "necessity"), therefore it should not be done. Whether one is competent to sail into a marina or to use sail to manoeuvre in such a place is irrelevant.

I am not saying everyone is competent handling power or warps, you allude to the inabilities people with power a few times, but one can guarantee such a person will be even less competent trying to set some sail as well.

To run your argument along the lines that those who may not appreciate or who may not have the skills involved cannot understand or might be concerned, smells of the "show off" to me. A rally driver may be quite competent at making handbrake turns into carpark spaces, he might be quite safe doing so too. But he would be showing off for two reasons - those whose property is parked beside him do not know his abilities so will be concerned (he should respect their concern), and there is a safer way of doing it with less risk to the property of others. To sail a large yacht into a lock, as you quote you were involved in doing, against the concern of the lock keeper, is pure "show off" regardless of the skipper's abilities to do so. The lock keeper does not necessarily know or trust those abilites, possibly knew there could have been a safer way, and has responsibilities to others including the liability of his employer.

In the end it is little consequence to me as you manoeuvre 12,000 miles away from me and as far as I am concerned that is sufficient searoom to keep me happy.

John

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[Robin]

Absolutely Right nm

nm

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