Manoeuvring long keel sailboat out of birth in wind - Any tips?

[wingcommander]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but the technique for steering narrowboats in reverse, which also worked on my old Tahitiana (a very heavy long-keeler), is to keep the tiller central while moving in reverse gear, then to turn the boat, put it in neutral; tiller hard over; and give it a brief but hefty blast in forward gear to kick the stern around. Then back into reverse with tiller central to carry on in the new direction. Works best on a boat heavy enough to keep some backwards momentum while you give it a blast of forwards.

Must try this method next time , my Vancouver 27 also has a mind of it's own astern. Bow always facing the wrong way . I find too much speed in reverse can have me pinned to the cockpit side due to rudder imbalance. Last few times I have just let her point whichever way until I have enough space to spin her . Luckily she can spin to starboard very tightly useing back / fill method ( think that's what it's called).
Admit I haven't attempted in strong wind or current.

 

[Rhylsailer99]

A second man on a dinghy with an outboard.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

A second man on a dinghy with an outboard.

That’s how we do it with our engineless long keeler. With a 3.35 RIB attached at one of the aft sections, the problem simply goes away.

 

[IanCC]

Our experiences and handling techniques certainly differ. I don't know more about the Twister than what is available at sailboatdata, but my guess would be that engines and possibly propellers on our respective boats explain a fair bit. As mentioned in post #99, I experienced a transformation in handling capability when I upgraded.
The Twister is only slightly smaller than mine over all, but it displaces over one ton more. With only half the power available and 'slow to respond' to that, it is understandable that you are sceptical about my 'tight U-turn technique'.
But it works, within limits of course, on my boat.

Nic 31 here. Totally unpredictable in reverse. But 3 blade feathering prop. Overpropped. Turns on a 6 pence. Put it in reverse and stern just goes sideways. But not always the way you want from a standing start.

 

[rotrax]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but the technique for steering narrowboats in reverse, which also worked on my old Tahitiana (a very heavy long-keeler), is to keep the tiller central while moving in reverse gear, then to turn the boat, put it in neutral; tiller hard over; and give it a brief but hefty blast in forward gear to kick the stern around. Then back into reverse with tiller central to carry on in the new direction. Works best on a boat heavy enough to keep some backwards momentum while you give it a blast of forwards.

I have steered a few narrowboats in astern, including a breasted pair of ex working boats. Also a 65 footer when breasted to a 52 foot runaway we rescued on the K&A under Red Board conditions which had lost its engine after visiting the toilet disposal and water site. I can state, with conviction, that our current boat would be a delight if it went astern like a narrowboat..........................................................

 

[fredrussell]

I move that all recreational boats under 100ft, by law, must have a substantial inflated ring (as seen on Walker Bay dinghies) fitted at gunwale height. Imagine how relaxed we would all be. Could probably abandon much of Colregs as a result, it would be like bumper-cars out there. I’ll get a petition started.

 

[Refueler]

There's a 42 HR sitting next to my C38 ... lovely boat - but owner has left her sitting ashore for a year .... story is when She bought it ... yes She bought it ... they sailed her to Latvia and found she was poor to windward ..... no idea or explanation why.
I tried to find out but all I got was - "experienced guys with her - they just could not get it to sail well".

Really well spec'd ketch ....

Actually correction - she's an early 41 Ketch - before they added the wide blue coachline to hull topsides.

Hallberg-Rassy 41

She has electric stern anchor .. twin foresails ... all the gear ... incl bow thruster ... sad ...

I've asked whether she is selling ... but not even Marina boss knows ... bills are just paid to keep her ....

Never seen anyone on her / checking etc.

 

[steveeasy]

Here is a picture of a marina:

View attachment 169136



Let's suppose the wind is blowing from the bottom of the picture, ie towards the dead ends.

You are telling me that, having backed my Twister out of her berth, I should then take a run at the dead end and, when I have built up a good speed, perform a high speed turn in a channel two boat lengths or less wide?

View attachment 169138

And why not. I’m sure you capable and sounds terrific fun

 

[Poignard]

And why not. I’m sure you capable and sounds terrific fun

You go first!

 

[steveeasy]

You go first!

It’s not the Twister way really is it. You’d really attract unwanted glares.
I used to bomb out the Elephant at Full chatter just for a laugh

I’m such a big kid. Got a good video racing another boat out of Dartmouth all sails up and the engine about to pop. Still ended up second.

Steveeasy

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Actually correction - she's an early 41 Ketch - before they added the wide blue coachline to hull topsides.

Hallberg-Rassy 41

She has electric stern anchor .. twin foresails ... all the gear ... incl bow thruster ... sad ...

I've asked whether she is selling ... but not even Marina boss knows ... bills are just paid to keep her ....

Never seen anyone on her / checking etc.

Poor to windward? I suppose it depends on what she was expecting, it isn't going to tack through 90° and it isn't going to outsail a typical 40 foot AWB in winds less than 15Knts but when the wind picks up she well hold her canvas and plod along in a stately comfortable fashion.

 

[Refueler]

Poor to windward? I suppose it depends on what she was expecting, it isn't going to tack through 90° and it isn't going to outsail a typical 40 foot AWB in winds less than 15Knts but when the wind picks up she well hold her canvas and plod along in a stately comfortable fashion.

I tried to find out what was claimed - but its just become a 'legend' here now.

IMHO - being a ketch should provide so many permutations to sort sailing her .. I cannot help but think the 'experienced' crew may not have been as 'experienced' as claimed !

Admittedly - she's an older heavier HR of old school ... but its from a reputable designer / builder ...

No-one knows whats happening with her .. she sits there ... waiting.

 

[PhillM]

I learned a few things with my long keeler

1. Don't go into anywhere you might have trouble getting out of. If the marina berth doesn't suit, ask for another.
2. Get to know your boat. Practice a lot. Take some time out to practice in a range of situations and conditions.
3. Always remember point 1 - that really is the secret to sailing a long keeler in this world of marinas built for new and more maneuverable AWBs.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I learned a few things with my long keeler

1. Don't go into anywhere you might have trouble getting out of. If the marina berth doesn't suit, ask for another.
2. Get to know your boat. Practice a lot. Take some time out to practice in a range of situations and conditions.
3. Always remember point 1 - that really is the secret to sailing a long keeler in this world of marinas built for new and more maneuverable AWBs.

No 1 not always practical. Sometimes only one berth available and the poor berth operator or club contact cannot magic up another that suits.

So the solution might be to seek assistance in getting the craft out by warping her, and possible expressing this future need before you get into the berth.

Our long keeler is teaching me patience and increasing my cunning. She also wont reliably hold any kind of course downwind and I got caught with a few unexpected gybes, so either sail on genny alone or steer 20 degrees off the wind

 

[IanCC]

Out of interest what is the etiquette if you blow it and end up alongside the boat in the adjacent berth?
I am always fendered up both sides just in case.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Out of interest what is the etiquette if you blow it and end up alongside the boat in the adjacent berth?
I am always fendered up both sides just in case.

I think you’re doing it right.

 

[Poignard]

Out of interest what is the etiquette if you blow it and end up alongside the boat in the adjacent berth?
I am always fendered up both sides just in case.

It wouldn't bother me if you did.

If I was on board I would help you .

If I wasn't, I wouldn't know; unless you damaged something. In which case, being a gentleman, you would let me know .

 

[onesea]

Some of the comments on here regarding berthing clearly demonstrates that people have forgotten rule number 1 of boat handling. Nothing will go wrong if no one is watching!
If it’s a difficult manoeuvre and no one is wathpching it will go fine. Try the most simple manoeuvre with half your sailing club watching and you know that it’s just to go wrong, often in the most unpredictable manner.

Regarding the canal boat trick of using steerage ahead when gong astern. This does work that positive shunt in the right direction before going astern can make a difference boats also tend to react to a kick ahead when steering when going astern better. Provided the rudder is near the propeller.

 

[PhillM]

No 1 not always practical. Sometimes only one berth available and the poor berth operator or club contact cannot magic up another that suits.

So the solution might be to seek assistance in getting the craft out by warping her, and possible expressing this future need before you get into the berth.

Our long keeler is teaching me patience and increasing my cunning. She also wont reliably hold any kind of course downwind and I got caught with a few unexpected gybes, so either sail on genny alone or steer 20 degrees off the wind

I don't disagree with warping. Indeed, that was a tactic I used all the time. I still stand by point 1. especially if it's your home berth. Many marinas put you where suits them, but there is nothing to stop you from asking for a move to a place that suits your boat better.

When away from home, doing some homework ahead of time on the marina layout and, sometimes, just saying, 'id rather have an easier berth please because shes long keeled' can take a lot of stress out of life.

 

[PhillM]

Out of interest what is the etiquette if you blow it and end up alongside the boat in the adjacent berth?
I am always fendered up both sides just in case.

As you say, be well fendered. Keep the speed down, don't shout and apologise nicely. There are those who have got it wrong and those who are going to, its just part of life. On occasion, I have intentionally, laid alongside another boat and then warped mine over to the correct finger pontoon as crosswind meant that we basically the only way to get in.