Making an offer....

gjgm said:
You seem to feel you have masterly achieved a top deal. You have no idea whether the seller has been laughing every day since you settled for only £40k off.
You only did what everyone else does when a sale goes through.. agree a mutually acceptable price. If either you or he hadnt agreed, no deal.
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It wasnt masterful or clever. I tried to get it even cheaper but i am confident i had established his lowest price. i might be wrong but felt i was at risk of losing the boat if i didnt come to his final figure. Theres nothing clever or difficult in talking to people and working out what a sellers lowest sale price is. I dont consider myself masterful and dont think i implied that. i was just responding to your earlier post about me being a nut!. many of us buy our boats this way. That you dont dosnt suprise me. I sold a boat once to someone who paid me handsomely without taking the time to work out how low i was prepared to go. I only wish there were more buyers like that out there! Thanks!
 
Ubergeekian said:
Do you haggle with Big Issue sellers? Many of them can be persuaded to take less than the cover price, particularly towards the end of a cold winter's day, when you're on your way home and they are desperately trying to raise the price of admission to the night shelter.

How do you know? Whether I am buying something or selling something, I like to remember that the other person is human being, and that if either of us emerges from a deal with an unnecessary feeling that it was unfair, the sum total of human happiness has been needlessly reduced.
If someone makes me a very low offer on my Jouster then I'll listen to it much more attentively if they give me some good reasoning behind the offer.
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Why are you assuming the seller is a penniless charity case? - he's selling a 30k boat for a start! He could have half a dozen of them for sale for all you know and drive home in a roller.
Im not advocating trying to rip anybody off and I agree there is no reason why a transaction can't be conducted in a friendly and fair manner, but that doesn't mean you have to give your money away.
You ask how I know the seller isn't interested in the reasons behind an offer. in truth I don't - I can only judge by my own reactions when i have been selling and I genuinely do NOT care. All that mattters is the offer. People come out with all kinds of reasons, real and false, about why they can't offer the full asking price. I have even heard things like " I can't go any higher because my wife wants to reupholster the saloon, she doesn't like the colour etc etc." I prefer people to cut to the chase.
No unnecessary loss of human happiness can be caused by an unfair deal, because nether party will sign up unless they do think its fair.
 
blueglass said:
Why are you assuming the seller is a penniless charity case? - he's selling a 30k boat for a start! He could have half a dozen of them for sale for all you know and drive home in a roller.
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Do I take it from that that you agree that paying more than you need to in the interests of fairness isn't always a stupid thing to do? How do you feel about fair trade stuff?

Im not advocating trying to rip anybody off and I agree there is no reason why a transaction can't be conducted in a friendly and fair manner, but that doesn't mean you have to give your money away.
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I'm not talking about giving money away. I'm talking about increasing the sum total of human happiness by negotiating a price with which both parties are genuinely content. If that's a bargain (when I'm buying) or more than I expected (when I'm selling) then it's a welcome bonus.
I prefer people to cut to the chase.
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A while back I bought a Reliant Rialto Trike for fun, just to see what it was like. I met the seller at Milton Keynes station, took it for a test drive and then said "You're asking £350. I'll offer you £300, we'll spend a while arguing about it and then eventually settle on £325. So why don't we just save time and agree on £325. Here it is, in cash." He looked at me, paused, laughed, said "That's exactly how I told my wife it would go" and we shook hands on the deal.
No unnecessary loss of human happiness can be caused by an unfair deal, because nether party will sign up unless they do think its fair.
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Oh yes they will, if they are desperate, for example. And I will not take advantage of desperation.
 
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When I was looking to buy a boat, one of the makes i looked at was a Pegasus 700
There was one available in SW Ireland. The boat I looked at was a trade in and was priced at €10,500.
Silly price, but in Ireland boats tend to cost a little extra because of the cost of getting them here, and the cost of viewing in the U.K.

When I saw the boat it was a shambles. Neglected, leaking decks, the wood on the companionway hatch came away in my hand as I went below to inspect the cabin with its rotting berth cushions, and a inboard engine that was US. So much so that outboard was included in the deal ( but hey thats another tread).
It had a builders plate which showed it was hull no.3 or 4 and built by Rydgeway Marine. Yet they claimed the boat was 1990 (still do in thier latest ad).
I dated it around 1980. and made a offer of about half the asking price. I was met with a stoney silence I did not increase my offer and no deal was done.
Two and a half years later the boat is still for sale at a slightly reduced price of €8995 but it would still not interest me or anybody else I suspect. I don't know if it was a case of keeping a asset which the company could borrow against or what.
I do know however, that as far as I was concerned a fair price could not be negotiated, and although there were cost to me for travel and accommodation, there was no deal.

I then realized that in the case of low cost boats the danger is that you can spend a disproportionate amount on viewing, so this also has to be factored into your offer.

I subsequently found a more expensive boat which I bought at what I considered to be a fair price.
 
Ubergeekian said:
Do I take it from that that you agree that paying more than you need to in the interests of fairness isn't always a stupid thing to do? How do you feel about fair trade stuff?



I'm not talking about giving money away. I'm talking a bout increasing the sum total of human happiness by negotiating a price with which both parties are genuinely content. If that's a bargain (when I'm buying) or more than I expected (when I'm selling) then it's a welcome bonus.

A while back I bought a Reliant Rialto Trike for fun, just to see what it was like. I met the seller at Milton Keynes station, took it for a test drive and then said "You're asking £350. I'll offer you £300, we'll spend a while arguing about it and then eventually settle on £325. So why don't we just save time and agree on £325. Here it is, in cash." He looked at me, paused, laughed, said "That's exactly how I told my wife it would go" and we shook hands on the deal.

Oh yes they will, if they are desperate, for example. And I will not take advantage of desperation.
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You are clearly an officer and a gentleman with a strong moral code. You are also clearly a very nice person. I just think maybe too nice for your own good, that's all. But then I'm just an old cynic!
 
blueglass said:
You are clearly an officer and a gentleman with a strong moral code. You are also clearly a very nice person. I just think maybe too nice for your own good, that's all. But then I'm just an old cynic!
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I am not so sure, I am impressed by his ethical attitude to lifes encounters and I think I would enjoy doing business with him but it does not follow that he is a 'nice person' though I suspect he might possibly be.
But 'too nice for your own good' - you are wrong there, he might not get the cheapest deal possible every time but I am sure he feels a lot better most of the time than many who do. And with his respect for his protagonist he may actually do a better deal than many. There is a lot more to life than money.
 
Quandary said:
There is a lot more to life than money.
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of course ther's more to life than money, but a financial transaction IS about the money. If you can afford to be magnanimous and get pleasure from your altruism, then that's fine but I am unashamedly selfish and tend to look after my own interests in the real world. Sorry but charity doesn't really belong here unless of course you are buying from an underpriveleged, starving waif with a 30k boat to sell.
 
blueglass said:
of course ther's more to life than money, but a financial transaction IS about the money. If you can afford to be magnanimous and get pleasure from your altruism, then that's fine but I am unashamedly selfish and tend to look after my own interests in the real world. Sorry but charity doesn't really belong here unless of course you are buying from an underpriveleged, starving waif with a 30k boat to sell.
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He wouldn't be "underpriveleged, starving waif" with a 30K boat would he.
 
Having spent eight years away cruising, I am finding it a stretch to re-adjust to the very dog eat dog, x-factor, money is everything world of the UK. I'm trying to figure out if I changed hugely or if it has just got markedly worse. I know it always was and always will be a rat race but surely it doesn't have to be so unpleasant and overt. ( I certainly don't operate my brokerage like that). Ubergeekian is a breath of fresh air and reminds me a lot of some of the people I met whilst travelling.
 
jonic said:
Having spent eight years away cruising, I am finding it a stretch to re-adjust to the very dog eat dog, x-factor, money is everything world of the UK. I'm trying to figure out if I changed hugely or if it has just got markedly worse. I know it always was and always will be a rat race but surely it doesn't have to be so unpleasant and overt. ( I certainly don't operate my brokerage like that). Ubergeekian is a breath of fresh air and reminds me a lot of some of the people I met whilst travelling.
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I haven't spent eight years away, but am still find it a stretch to adjust to the dog eat dog etc....

I bought a HR in Oct 09 privately, after some mild haggling settled on a price I was happy to pay, 7% below asking. I sold a HR (different one) in Mar 10 for 2.5% below asking to a Swede. I got a bit more than I paid 9 years previously, he got what he wanted and no-one else did. He's now selling i Sweden for 25% more than he paid, but has done some additions, but good luck to him, if it sells.
 
Stork_III said:
I haven't spent eight years away, but am still find it a stretch to adjust to the dog eat dog etc....

I bought a HR in Oct 09 privately, after some mild haggling settled on a price I was happy to pay, 7% below asking. I sold a HR (different one) in Mar 10 for 2.5% below asking to a Swede. I got a bit more than I paid 9 years previously, he got what he wanted and no-one else did. He's now selling i Sweden for 25% more than he paid, but has done some additions, but good luck to him, if it sells.
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Good HRS are a great store of value. I have just sold a 46 and a 42 for clients, within 2 and 5 % of asking. Both came out almost even for what they originally paid for them, less the fit out costs. I have people waiting for the next one, but they are a bit thin on the ground at the moment.
 
People tend to concentrate on "the deal" whereas it is only a minor part of the process of buying a boat. It is rarely an impulse buy, but the end result of a great deal of thought and research.

People use all sorts of reference points in establishing what they are prepared to pay for a boat and then narrow it down to a small number of possibilities that meet the main criteria. The small number of possibles may all be a particular model or type within a price range. Sometimes, if the boat is very popular and there are a lot on the market, the asking prices are usually in a narrow range - for example there are 8 Bav 34s on the market at the moment with an average asking price of £47800 and a spread of +/- 8%. On the other hand a rare (and long lived in this case boat) such as a Rustler 36, where there are 3 have prices that range from £55-215k. There is also often a wide range of prices, particularly of older boats where conditions vary greatly. So in the 25 Centaurs for sale, the majority are around £11k but one is asking only £6k, but another over £12k.

While the actual selling price of individual boats may vary from the asking price, the typical price would be close. Where variations are greatest ("I got a huge discount" or "I was screwed", depending on your viewpoint) there can be all sorts of reasons - thin market with few comparable transactions to inform the asking price, serious defects and so on.

One thing that always surprises me is how rarely do buyers or sellers express dissatisfaction with their decisions - or do the dissatisfied never want to admit it!
 
Tranona said:
One thing that always surprises me is how rarely do buyers or sellers express dissatisfaction with their decisions - or do the dissatisfied never want to admit it!
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That is because both buyers and sellers have thought about what the boat is worth, and the boat is generally surveyed to confirm that the buyer is getting pretty much what he expected to get.

So in the end, you both negotiated a price with which you were happy, and the buyer ended up getting what he was expecting to get. Nothing for anybody to be unhappy about.
 
All

Thanks for the comments and information – thanks to Yoda for kicking the thread off with the first reply!

Apologies for the delay in replying to any posts – I am currently in Afghanistan (yes that famous sailing resort!) and have difficulty getting online!

Coaster – to answer your questions:
1. Do you really know roughly what sale prices have been achieved during the past few years for the type of boat in question? NO – I am not sure where I can find this info out to be honest but will try getting hold of some brokers that may have sold this marque

2. Is the current asking price about right or is it one of the excessively optimistic ones sometimes seen (if the boat has been for sale for more than a few months it's likely to be the latter). It is line with two other yachts of that type so I think so??

3. How keen is the owner to sell? It has been advertised since September – not sure if that means anything though!

4. How keen are you to buy? Nervous first time buyer! IMHO if I get one then I am far more likely to do more sailing / learning etc than when not having one but it is the check and balance of time v use v cost.

I would never consider buying without a survey and probably engine & rigging checks as I do not know enough about them (yet). I would also hope to be able to do a “sea trial” if possible – not sure if that is realistic or not?

Lakesailor – understood that is of no interest to the seller – but you have to chance your arm I guess.

Snooks – no offence taken. I have struggled to find anything that I really like that I feel is suitable for us as a family. I am 6ft 4” so this limits yacht types I have been able to look at. I also prefer traditional looking yachts rather than newer “AWB” but I am keeping my options open.

Jac –she had an excellent survey in 2009 so I am hoping nothing needs to be replaced! I am also overseas presently so will not be looking at completing the purchase until end Apr 11 if can be avoided. I am hoping to get a visit / survey etc in Feb11 to finally make up my mind.

Michaelchapman – thanks for the excellent idea about the full inventory – point taken onboard.

Grahamthurs – excellent summary and exactly how I feel business should be conducted - Non emotional and well, professional.

2700 – I too have been amazed at the condition of some yachts I have looked at that are being advertised for £ thousands (or tens of!). I recently noticed that one I looked at in May 10 (an old Nicholson) has been reduced by well over £25k and has had nothing done to improve its condition (rotten inside). This is part of the difficulty for the “newbie” – establishing what is fair and reasonable from a price v condition perspective. I guess that comes with time and experience – and looking round lots!

To everyone else who has added comment to this very interesting and informative thread (Jonic, Flapjack, Ubergeekian, Daedelus, Tranona etc) many thanks. This has opened up my eyes to some points I had not yet considered and has cemented the need for a good survey and not rushing headlong into the purchase.

As originally stated, this is business and not personal – but my intention would never be to offend anyone – especially as this is /was a pride and joy etc. I am looking for a fair result but have to be cognizant of the fact that there will be additional costs that need to be considered and that my wallet is not bottomless!

Thanks again – I just need to check my tick lists and decided to go for it – or not!

Paul
 
PEEJAYSEA said:
1. Do you really know roughly what sale prices have been achieved during the past few years for the type of boat in question? NO – I am not sure where I can find this info out to be honest but will try getting hold of some brokers that may have sold this marque
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Ok PM me the details/link to the boat and I'll see if I can find some actual selling prices for you
 
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