mainsheet on the coachroof - pros and cons

[fredrussell]

This is partly what I don't understand - The S31 was meant to have a bit more sparkle than the staid previous Moodys and the Parker 31 is considered something of a flyer AIUI.

Both those boats have a good turn of speed for their size but they are very much cruiser/racers with a definite bias in favour of being a comfortable place for a family. I don’t know about the Moody but I’m pretty sure a cockpit traveller would have been an option on Parker boats. As standard they came with the rooftop type but with all plain bearing blocks which added loads of friction. In light winds on a run I would have to physically push the boom out. I don’t race my boat but I try to get the most out of it in regards to sail trim.

 

[mogmog2]

I have a Parker 31 - I changed the cabin top traveller to one mounted behind companionway and definitely wouldn’t change back. It’s very reassuring when wind is up and gusty to sit with one hand on tiller and one hand on mainsheet, especially in a light and very responsive boat such as mine.

Hi, I'm increasingly interested in the Parker 31, could you tell me why you didn't or couldn't run the lines aft from the coachroof - does the layout & shape of the boat prevent this? Many thanks.

 

[dunedin]

….

Whether or not you tolerate the mainsheet, and track, in the cockpit is a matter of your sailing plans and your level of risk tolerance. To my mind a planned gybe by a competent crew in high winds is arguably safer with a cockpit mounted mainsheet, as the level of control is higher. It's uncontrolled, unplanned, gybes that cause the issues. Which is why, when cruising, I would rig preventers as a matter of course.

I agree entirely that the best solution varies depending on boat, usage and risk appetite.

Of course a planned gybe by a competent crew is better than an accidental gybe. And in a race boat, competent crews are a necessity and performance has to be near the top of the list, otherwise no point in competing.

But equally very different with cruising with a varied crew and/or grand children. We have had 5 year olds helming under sail (with supervision), with other young children and non-sailor adults in the cockpit. In these cases it is good reassurance to know the traveller and mainsheet is in front of the sprayhood. Keeps more space and can use the otherwise unsafe “dead zones”. And it isn’t just a gybe that I have seen cause issues - a traveller being released in a gust can trap unwary fingers. But that is my usage and risk appetite.

 

[mogmog2]

Both those boats have a good turn of speed for their size but they are very much cruiser/racers with a definite bias in favour of being a comfortable place for a family. I don’t know about the Moody but I’m pretty sure a cockpit traveller would have been an option on Parker boats. As standard they came with the rooftop type but with all plain bearing blocks which added loads of friction. In light winds on a run I would have to physically push the boom out. I don’t race my boat but I try to get the most out of it in regards to sail trim.

Thanks. That sounds like it hits the spot then - comfortable cruising (me & The Admiral mostly, occasional adult sprog(s), all competent or skilled sailors) and with a bit more sparkle than we currently have (Centaur - not difficult ).
Like you, I like to get the boat sailing well and get a bit more out of it than just sitting back, although that happens sometimes.

 

[fredrussell]

Hi, I'm increasingly interested in the Parker 31, could you tell me why you didn't or couldn't run the lines aft from the coachroof - does the layout & shape of the boat prevent this? Many thanks.

Do you mean would a German system be possible to install on a P31? I don’t see why not but it would be not much of an improvement on the standard set up.
Parker 31s have a short traveller mounted in front of the sliding hatch on coach roof. Two control lines go aft from traveller ends to a set of clutches, one each side of companionway. It’s not a ‘German’ system but it works ok. I just found it meant leaving the tiller for a few seconds each time you wanted to adjust the traveller by operating the clutches. If single handed, this was a nuisance. With traveller in cockpit I can make adjustments to traveller with one hand whilst steering with the other.

 

[johnalison]

Of course, the equation becomes different for centre-cockpit boats. CC HRs have the sheet on a track behind the helm, and I imagine this is usual or common. The oddest system I have seen was on a Malo 38 many years ago, where the sheet came down from the coachroof through a channel at the edge of the fibreglass sprayhood screen and along the coaming to a clutch.

 

[mogmog2]

Do you mean would a German system be possible to install on a P31? I don’t see why not but it would be not much of an improvement on the standard set up.
Parker 31s have a short traveller mounted in front of the sliding hatch on coach roof. Two control lines go aft from traveller ends to a set of clutches, one each side of companionway. It’s not a ‘German’ system but it works ok. I just found it meant leaving the tiller for a few seconds each time you wanted to adjust the traveller by operating the clutches. If single handed, this was a nuisance. With traveller in cockpit I can make adjustments to traveller with one hand whilst steering with the other.

Thanks. I've managed to glean the traveller controls from the pix on the broker's listing. On this boat, it looks like the mainsheet is led forward to the mast, then back to the cockpit - I think that is a German system? However, I suspect it stops at the clutches/winch, so still out of reach of the helm, but I haven't any plans to s/h so there should be a hand to do that. I suppose it could theoretically be led further aft, but that's a lot of turning blocks and more string. I'd get a better handle on it looking at the boat but it's a couple of counties away (worth it when I'm more sure, but not at this stage).
What is the standard setup? Assuming a sprayhood, how would the mainsheet run to be accessible in front of the hood? Thanks, much appreciated.

 

[fredrussell]

Thanks. I've managed to glean the traveller controls from the pix on the broker's listing. On this boat, it looks like the mainsheet is led forward to the mast, then back to the cockpit - I think that is a German system?

On mine it was slightly different to the system you describe. The sheet started on the coach roof traveller car, then up and down to the boom three times (via 3 blocks a foot apart) then ran aft along bottom of boom to boom end, whereupon it went up and down twice (4:1) to a padeye on cockpit sole. The purpose of the three blocks on boom being, I assume, to spread the load.

EDIT: I’ve just been looking at some pics of P31s on web and you are indeed correct- they do have the German mainsheet system. Mine was either non standard when I bought it, or later boats (mine is #26 of 30) had the system I desribe. Apologies for confusion.

 

[Roberto]

Thanks. I've managed to glean the traveller controls from the pix on the broker's listing. On this boat, it looks like the mainsheet is led forward to the mast, then back to the cockpit - I think that is a German system?

The German system runs: sheet starts say port side of aft cockpit, goes forward along the deck running basically parallel to centerline, a deck block sends it to the boom mast extremity, from here it goes to the boom end, drops down to a block on the track, goes up again to the boom end, then follows a symmetrical path to starboard, ending on the starboard aft cockpit. There are usually two winches on the two aft sides of the cockpit to trim the one single sheet.

 

[flaming]

But equally very different with cruising with a varied crew and/or grand children. We have had 5 year olds helming under sail (with supervision), with other young children and non-sailor adults in the cockpit. In these cases it is good reassurance to know the traveller and mainsheet is in front of the sprayhood. Keeps more space and can use the otherwise unsafe “dead zones”. And it isn’t just a gybe that I have seen cause issues - a traveller being released in a gust can trap unwary fingers. But that is my usage and risk appetite.

You're not the only one sailing with young kids. I'm pretty comfortable with how I manage the risk with the kids on board thank you.View attachment small EA.jpg

 

[MikeBz]

That's your opinion, and it's a valid one. It is not however a universal one.

…

However it very much isn't a non issue if you're trying to get a proper leech tension for upwind work on a performance boat. Plus of course your boom now needs to be considerably stronger to take the loads, your sheet/boom attachment needs beefing up as you've doubled the load at the attachment. And the vertical load on the traveller car has just doubled too, so we'll need to upspec that to make sure it moves under load.
All doable, and if getting the mainsheet out of the cockpit at all costs is your goal, then sure. But don't lose sight of the compromises that you've made by describing them as a "non-issue"

Indeed, I think I made it clear that it’s my opinion, for my own use, by saying “I would…”. My desire here is driven by experience and usage - sailing mostly 2-up, with one sitting comfortably in the cockpit reading a book etc and not wanting to have to avoid the mainsheet when we tack or be compromised on seating position by the mainsheet. I’d be equally happy with the sheet behind the cockpit if the boom is long enough.

When I said “sheet load is a non issue” I meant the load on the sheet that the crew has to cope with, I appreciate that other loads go up. I would think very carefully (as in not do it) about converting to a coachroof setup which wasn’t designed in to the boat in the first place.

Going upwind, IME getting the boom on or near enough to the centreline if you don’t have a traveller is the biggest problem, especially if the sheet is on the cockpit floor when it is a long way below the boom.

Our previous boat had a coachroof installation where it was impossible to get the boom near the centreline, it would get to a point where grinding harder on the sheet just increased leech tension without actually bringing the boom any closer to the centreline. That was solved by converting it to a strop of the right length - it cost nothing and after that I could pretty much centreline the boom without using the winch up to F3/F4. Current boat has a traveller on the coachroof so angle to centreline and leech tension are easy to get right.

Horses for courses.

 

[greeny]

Depends, today many rounded wedge shaped boats have the same beam from half boat aftwards

Yes but work out the angles.

 

[mogmog2]

On mine it was slightly different to the system you describe. The sheet started on the coach roof traveller car, then up and down to the boom three times (via 3 blocks a foot apart) then ran aft along bottom of boom to boom end, whereupon it went up and down twice (4:1) to a padeye on cockpit sole. The purpose of the three blocks on boom being, I assume, to spread the load.

EDIT: I’ve just been looking at some pics of P31s on web and you are indeed correct- they do have the German mainsheet system. Mine was either non standard when I bought it, or later boats (mine is #26 of 30) had the system I desribe. Apologies for confusion.

Thanks for that. I'm trying to guage whether it's worth the trek over to this boat.

I've read all the keel articles on the PSSA forum that I can access as a guest, but only saw specific problems posted - might I ask what the annual keel maintenance is & perhaps a longer cycle for major works - what's involved? I'm capable of doing most work but I'd like an idea of what I'd be taking on, and I've got my work cut out convincing my wife .
I'd join the association but I'm currently looking at a number of options so reluctant to join several associations and there's no other option for prospective owners - I'll need to whittle it down first to perhaps the 2 strongest contenders. Much appreciated.

 

[fredrussell]

Annual keel maintenance is checking the hydraulic fluid level and a quick check on various keel components. The only keel component that’s not easy to check is the main hydraulic hose from pump in cockpit locker to ram in heads. It’s definitely worth asking if this pipe has been replaced as if the rubber outer layer gets damaged the steel inner of pipe will corrode. It’s an easy enough job to replace it, and a pipe costs £100 or so at any hydraulics specialist. Parker recommend replacing steel cables on keel every 3 years (I think) - again an easy job and cheap to have these cables made.

 

[mogmog2]

Annual keel maintenance is checking the hydraulic fluid level and a quick check on various keel components. The only keel component that’s not easy to check is the main hydraulic hose from pump in cockpit locker to ram in heads. It’s definitely worth asking if this pipe has been replaced as if the rubber outer layer gets damaged the steel inner of pipe will corrode. It’s an easy enough job to replace it, and a pipe costs £100 or so at any hydraulics specialist. Parker recommend replacing steel cables on keel every 3 years (I think) - again an easy job and cheap to have these cables made.

Thank you very much. Most helpful.

 

[ashtead]

I should have said the only disadvantage of German mainsheet system (leaving aside the comments on friction which never seem real issue) is the absence of mailsail track to let off to de power the main as no track exists clearly but of course you have none of the stress of the crew failing to release the track car or return to centre line at right moment. Once the mainsheet is set up on the winch the helm has absolute control to free off quickly as you sail along(provided of course you don’t forget to release the jammer) and then winch in etc.

 

[dunedin]

I should have said the only disadvantage of German mainsheet system (leaving aside the comments on friction which never seem real issue) is the absence of mailsail track to let off to de power the main as no track exists clearly but of course you have none of the stress of the crew failing to release the track car or return to centre line at right moment. Once the mainsheet is set up on the winch the helm has absolute control to free off quickly as you sail along(provided of course you don’t forget to release the jammer) and then winch in etc.

The German mainsheet system does not preclude a mainsheet track - in our case ahead of sprayhood. But we tend to not play the track in gusts, just position for best angle- eg to windward when beating to centre the boom without too much sheet tension.

And yes when led back to winch by wheel makes very easy to depower main in a gust. Common with us sailing amongst islands, hills etc - indeed got a sudden gust today passing an island, twice the speed and 40 degree shift to side. Eased and powered forward.

 

[ashtead]

Agreed no reason why you cannot have a track on German system -just the way we (and I suspect the Hanse and Dehler are set up) but agreed its would not be impossible. From practical experience I find it much more reassuring than the track with sheets in front of sprayhood etc as we had on former Bavaria.

 

[mogmog2]

Both the boats I mentioned have lines to the mainsheet traveller car. I feel that routing lines further aft to the helm would be tricky - getting them from the coachroof down the cabin and along the cockpit coaming... However maybe in a boat this smaller size it's less of an issue IDK?

 

[oldbloke]

On a small lightweight boat with a fractional rig and a decent adjustable kicking strap a traveller is of marginal benefit and pretty useless for dealing with gusts. When a big one hits and you've let the traveller off you're holding the wrong piece of string