MacWester Rowan 22 long keel vs Westerly Cirrus 22 fin keel

[Fanny Haddock]

The OP has moved on, but it was just a hypothetical question really. I wondered if MacW built both models the same. Unlike other Westerlys, they look like they are just welded plates rather than cast, shaped & bedded keels. Unless they are deeply embedded like the Tridents.

Certainly, at the current time, there are plenty of boats on the market.

 

[Wansworth]

Sailed a Macwester 22,went like a rocket in the ría de Vigo?

 

[Fanny Haddock]

Both you & the tide were going out I take it?

 

[DangerousPirate]

So the data on sailboatdata is not very accurate? Oh thats a bummer. I frequently use that side for comparision. Are there alternatives?

 

[Tranona]

So the data on sailboatdata is not very accurate? Oh thats a bummer. I frequently use that side for comparision. Are there alternatives?

No. Just a problem particularly for older boats where basic design data was not often published, nor even when it was there was no standard. So the compilers of publications such as Sailboatdata relied on publicity material, press reports, builders advice and maybe the designer. Also boats often changed during their production cycle or were offered with different rigs or keels for example. However that is probably the best available source of such data.

Be aware though that this sort of data is only a guide to performance of a boat as there are many other variables to consider, not least the sails, skill of helm and mods subsequent owners have made!

 

[Laminar Flow]

Such things as quality of sails or skill of a helm are obviously outside of the control of Sailboatdata. While they usually get the main data right, such as the general dimensions, the single most important data, which is displacement, is frequently way off, as are, consequently, all the ratios related to it. I have often seen real life displacement figures 50% higher for production vessels compared to numbers quoted in Sailboatdata and up to 230% higher for vessels that had been home completed.

In regards to the Rowan, the numbers quoted by the Macwester site were 30% higher than those by Sailboatdata. Now, while it is quite common for full-load displacement figures to be 20% higher than empty ship displacement, the extraordinary discrepancies above and beyond make any kind of meaningful performance predictions impossible.

There appears to be no consensus in the industry what displacement is quoted in publications: designed weight, build weight (which can be considerably higher than design weight), half load, full load? I have even read that, on occasion, series built boats are initially tested as a stripped-out prototype and this displacement is then used for publication ( Delius Clasing, How to evaluate a Yacht). Before displacement became a dirty word, reputable designers, such as S&S, would cite half-load displacement figures, which to me would seem a fair and reasonable approach.

Unfortunately, the only way to confirm comparative and real displacements of a particular model is to have access to the lines plan and the hydrostatic data. This is rarely published. Fortunately for me, my own boat was the only model of the Colvic Watson range for which the lines were published. This has allowed me to evaluate my boat and calculate relevant data, such as prismatic coefficient, pounds per inch immersion, RM at 20 & 30 degr. etc.. With this information I can, at a glance, make a fairly accurate assessment of a similar boat's displacement and probable performance.

 

[Fanny Haddock]

I have found the owner of the sailboatdata website very responsive to correction or addition. Being US based, they miss a lot of classic British boats. Shame they don't list headroom, that would be useful.

 

[Lifeboater]

Had a macwester 26ft. Very slow and would never ever tack in light airs or go well to windward. Very bad weather helm so many were fitted with bigger rudder at stern or bow sprits to bring sail load forward, as mine was. You would have thought that weather helm would make it auto tack but it simply slows it

Very steady and got Navigator used to long duration voyages, but as I said slow so that did not equate to long distance as we always missed the relevant tide gate.

A macwester problem even on the 30fter.

The Westerly is probably better but why go for such a small boat when a 26fter (such as the Centaur range) is faster steadier and more roomy for helmsman and crew and will barely cost more once equiped.

Buying a different boat look at radio, plotter sails etc.

Going foreign you need radio with dsc, gps and AIS reception, you may well be advised to get chart plotter,. You will be crossing busy shipping lanes maybe at night. So thats £1200 down.

Any new sails are at least a £1000 a pop, and thats your main power to move you

Engine - is it good for 30hour continuous?

The Rowan 22 is rather different to a Mac 26. The Rowan is a real classic long keeler, so no safety risk from keel bolts that corrode, delamination around bolts or the risk that if you run aground the entire keel will join you in the cabin before the boat sinks.

Long keeled yachts do go to windward too well, although once it gets rough, no heavy offshore capable, (With a few modifications), yacht in the same size range will make much progress.

I was looking for an old Pacific Seacraft Flicka 20-23, the ultimate in small blue water yachts, BUT, even old ones are expensive and there are none for sale in the UK at present, so the nearest I could find in design terms was the Mac Rowan 22 without the bilge keels, or with bolts on ones. I think I've found one worth restoring and modifying for offshore single or double handed sailing. No bilge keels but with beaching legs and a Beta 14.

Bolt on bilge keels are like bolt on fin keels, potentially a real disaster when the get old or abused.

To answer the question, if you are just a day or coastal sailor, the Cirrus is OK, BUT, if you want to survive offshore, the Rowan is far better. I would warn anyone that condition matters, and the Rowans often need beefing up in rigging terms and a few items like the foredeck hatch, so good to see Houdini hatch conversions.

 

[Refueler]

This thread is more than 3years old .... think OP has moved on since he started it !!

 

[Wansworth]

This thread is more than 3years old .... think OP has moved on since he started it !!

I was once a keen possiblepurchaser but the interior basically a molded unit didn’t make the best use of the interior and Iwould have cut it all out and built a wooden interior…….but as a sailing boat it was certainly a goer

 

[Lifeboater]

Not only would I but I have, and in the last few years done busy shipping lanes like Straits of Messina and Gibralter and tricky Moroccan Atlantic coast harbours like Rabat. All with a tablet on the chart table as that to me is the right place for easy navigation compared to plotting running fixes on paper charts. Cockpit is for compass and eyeball for me, but each to their own as long as you don’t consider cockpit gadgets as essential. Lots of modern things I wouldn’t do without on boat - e.g. ice maker.

Fog is a big deal which you don’t much encounter after Brittany and AIS is nice I’m sure but given the number of boats and small ships not broadcasting on AIS once you go a bit South then if I wanted reassurance in fog I would go for Radar. But as said I don’t really encounter fog - once in 10 years between a busy stretch of Croatian islands.

Radar is always a good idea, BUT, real tough to install on a 22ft yacht. A radar transponder is a good idea, as is not starting a cruise through busy shipping lanes if too much fog is forecast. Most illegal fishing or smugglers don't switch on their AIS sets, but oddly enough they do have a radar on in most cases.

It's almost impossible to mount a large radar reflector up high on a small yacht.

I was once a keen possiblepurchaser but the interior basically a molded unit didn’t make the best use of the interior and Iwould have cut it all out and built a wooden interior…….but as a sailing boat it was certainly a goer

The Rowan 22 has one of the best liveabord interiors of any small classic yacht I've seen. It does lack a gas locker and the one I've paid a deposit for, (Hull survey before actual purchase), does have a rather dubious secondary gas locker inside the port main cockpit locker. Not sure if it's standard fit or not, so if anyone knows if it is or not, please let me know, as I will refrain from removing it.

Also what was the standard size for the rigging wire. It looks like 4mm, but I'm going to use 5 mm 1x19 and staylock lower terminals.

PS: Yes I know it's an old thread, but the mature threads are better.

 

[DangerousPirate]

This thread is more than 3years old .... think OP has moved on since he started it !!

I don't mind. People can discuss if it helps them. I am sure i am not the only one considering this.

 

[Refueler]

I don't mind. People can discuss if it helps them. I am sure i am not the only one considering this.

No complaint here ... its just that often the resurrection post seems to imply poster has not realised the age of the thread ..

I agree though that many old threads have good info and can be as relevant today as they were then. Its also nice to see RtoR return to its 'smaller roots' as well ...

 

[pioneer]

Radar is always a good idea, BUT, real tough to install on a 22ft yacht. A radar transponder is a good idea, as is not starting a cruise through busy shipping lanes if too much fog is forecast. Most illegal fishing or smugglers don't switch on their AIS sets, but oddly enough they do have a radar on in most cases.

It's almost impossible to mount a large radar reflector up high on a small yacht.

The Rowan 22 has one of the best liveabord interiors of any small classic yacht I've seen. It does lack a gas locker and the one I've paid a deposit for, (Hull survey before actual purchase), does have a rather dubious secondary gas locker inside the port main cockpit locker. Not sure if it's standard fit or not, so if anyone knows if it is or not, please let me know, as I will refrain from removing it.

Also what was the standard size for the rigging wire. It looks like 4mm, but I'm going to use 5 mm 1x19 and staylock lower terminals.

PS: Yes I know it's an old thread, but the mature threads are better.

I don't liveaboard but spend several weeks on board during the summer on my MacWester Rowan 22. It's fine for me on my own and I find it comfortable. The gas locker on Pioneer was originally just the Calor bottle in the port cockpit locker. No separation and no drain overboard, also connected to the cooker by re-inforced flex hoses (slightly rusty). Now I have a partition in the same locker carefully sixed to take 2 907 Camping Gaz bottles, drained to overboard. The rusty flexes where replaced many years ago (maybe 40) and solid pipe installed. Installation now regularly checked and certified.

Happy to discuss the finer points of MacWester 22 ownership if there's anything I can help with, send me a PM.

 

[Tranona]

Also what was the standard size for the rigging wire. It looks like 4mm, but I'm going to use 5 mm 1x19 and staylock lower terminals.

Why do you think you need to go up a wire size? 4mm sounds right for a simple well stayed masthead rig of that size.

 

[Goldie]

Going foreign you need radio with dsc, gps and AIS reception, you may well be advised to get chart plotter,. You will be crossing busy shipping lanes maybe at night. So thats £1200 down.

I disagree! A radio - perhaps just a handheld - yes, advisable but not essential.

People were crossing the channel for decades without any of the other items and I probably did forty or so Channel crossings without any of the other items and maybe about 90 before I had either DSC or AIS. Basic principles!!!

 

[Wansworth]

I disagree! A radio - perhaps just a handheld - yes, advisable but not essential.

People were crossing the channel for decades without any of the other items and I probably did forty or so Channel crossings without any of the other items and maybe about 90 before I had either DSC or AIS. Basic principles!!!

And the machine that goes”ping”

 

[RupertW]

The OP mentioned the Med. Would you go down The Raz and cross the Bay of Biscay with chart plotter if possible? I can tell you from 2 fog bound crossings of Western Channel that AIS receiver in shipping lane renders it merely frightening not PTDS terrifying. We have 3 smart phones/tablets and they are great for discussing route in pub or cafe but you dont want to use them in storms or even bright sunlight

It’s an old thread but a notification has just popped up on it and the answer is absolutely yes. South Brittany was a favourite cruising ground in the early 90s before we had a GPS of any kind (or radar or AIS obviously) and as I sit here in St Lucia, we don’t have a chartplotter or AIS in the current boat or in any of the voyaging to get here.

Radar in fog was one thing I wished I had about half a dozen times in UK sailing over 20 years, but not in the 15 years since as fog is rare since we got south of Britanny. Otherwise Navionics on a smartphone is fine for all the sailing I’ve done since from UK to Greece to here.

 

[DangerousPirate]

No complaint here ... its just that often the resurrection post seems to imply poster has not realised the age of the thread ..

I agree though that many old threads have good info and can be as relevant today as they were then. Its also nice to see RtoR return to its 'smaller roots' as well ...

Pretty sure he didn't. But as I say, I don't mind as the OP.

It’s an old thread but a notification has just popped up on it and the answer is absolutely yes. South Brittany was a favourite cruising ground in the early 90s before we had a GPS of any kind (or radar or AIS obviously) and as I sit here in St Lucia, we don’t have a chartplotter or AIS in the current boat or in any of the voyaging to get here.

Radar in fog was one thing I wished I had about half a dozen times in UK sailing over 20 years, but not in the 15 years since as fog is rare since we got south of Britanny. Otherwise Navionics on a smartphone is fine for all the sailing I’ve done since from UK to Greece to here.

Well.. I once dumped my tablet overboard by accident (it came lose and then knocked overboard), and then a few days later, in bad conditions, I steppen on my phone, which was halfway in a locker to keep it from sliding around while heeled and still close enough to me to grab it and navigate (no autopilot then).

And it's safe to say I was a little buggered like that.

I wouldn't ever rely on my phone again, only as the very last resort.

 

[Lifeboater]

Why do you think you need to go up a wire size? 4mm sounds right for a simple well stayed masthead rig of that size.

Simple, bigger terminal and wire last longer and are far less likely to fail in a knockdown or collision with the side of a ship. Also I've no idea how old the present rig is.