MacWester Rowan 22 long keel vs Westerly Cirrus 22 fin keel

[Refueler]

Simple, bigger terminal and wire last longer and are far less likely to fail in a knockdown or collision with the side of a ship. Also I've no idea how old the present rig is.

WOW !

Seriously ... do not forget that the designer of the boat and its rig would have factored in all manner of scenarios .... as well as loads / tension applied to the structures.
I accept that some long distance people up their standing rigging one size ... but they are a minority ..... and the boats are significantly larger.

 

[Tranona]

Simple, bigger terminal and wire last longer and are far less likely to fail in a knockdown or collision with the side of a ship. Also I've no idea how old the present rig is.

Another "seriously". That is very odd reasoning. Your existing rig is more than strong enough and using larger fittings because they might not break in a collision just does not make sense - that is not what they are sized for and the chances of a collision breaking them is just about non existent.

I agree you should replace rigging of unknown age but take it all off, take it to a rigger and have him make up a direct replacement size for size including new rigging screws and toggles. There is no need to go to the expense of Staloks, swaged terminals are fine as the rigger will know the exact length.

 

[justanothersailboat]

Surely if you increase the wire size
- in conditions which would have broken the original wire, something else will break instead
- you cannot crank up the tension to the same % of the wire strength without overstressing something

I don't think I would dare do that without some really joined up analysis of everything that might be affected...

 

[Lifeboater]

Another "seriously". That is very odd reasoning. Your existing rig is more than strong enough and using larger fittings because they might not break in a collision just does not make sense - that is not what they are sized for and the chances of a collision breaking them is just about non existent.

I agree you should replace rigging of unknown age but take it all off, take it to a rigger and have him make up a direct replacement size for size including new rigging screws and toggles. There is no need to go to the expense of Staloks, swaged terminals are fine as the rigger will know the exact length.

I've had rigging failures on every single yacht I've sailed on a regulat basis offshore, including an old Oyster 69 I was first officer+- on that had a lower shround fail not long after the rig had been fully inspected, which was an insurance requirement. I also had the lower backstay fail during my first singlehanded circumnavigation.

When my new pre abused Rowan 22 arrives in Poole by HIAB truck the rig will be down, so to set it up again without considering changing the rig for the next size up would be a daft thing to do. My first yacht was designed for blue water sailing and it had 5mm wire, so that is what I will use. At present it has swage fittings and they don't like salt spray and warm climates.

An AIS is already fitted and I will install a radar image enhancer, not sure which one yet, but there is still a risk of collision as not every vessel has its AIS on or pays attention to their radar. The bow wave of a large vessel nearly always pushes a smaller boat aside when it runs one down, BUT the rig almost always contacts the side and in most cases dismasts the yacht. There is not much I could do about a spreader collapsing, but there sure is about the wire size. If all goes well, I will be bound for Chile in late summer and there is always the chance I will get knocked down at some point. Rigging failures are not funny, so I don't intend to suffer another one.

There is another risk that because I don't have any paperwork showing which company changed the rig, that it could have used Chinese wire and swages. The first sign of that is stranding next to the terminals. I really don't want to find out that what could have been a reputable company suffered another con artist selling that wire. Good stainless needs to go through a complex process of heat and chemical treatment during its manufacture that is expensive. Alas bad companies don't bother to do that and use well known forged labels. The last one I saw said Hasselfors on the wire drum.

 

[Lifeboater]

I've had rigging failures on every single yacht I've sailed on a regulat basis offshore, including an old Oyster 69 I was first officer+- on that had a lower shround fail not long after the rig had been fully inspected, which was an insurance requirement. I also had the lower backstay fail during my first singlehanded circumnavigation.

When my new pre abused Rowan 22 arrives in Poole by HIAB truck the rig will be down, so to set it up again without considering changing the rig for the next size up would be a daft thing to do. My first yacht was designed for blue water sailing and it had 5mm wire, so that is what I will use. At present it has swage fittings and they don't like salt spray and warm climates.

An AIS is already fitted and I will install a radar image enhancer, not sure which one yet, but there is still a risk of collision as not every vessel has its AIS on or pays attention to their radar. The bow wave of a large vessel nearly always pushes a smaller boat aside when it runs one down, BUT the rig almost always contacts the side and in most cases dismasts the yacht. There is not much I could do about a spreader collapsing, but there sure is about the wire size. If all goes well, I will be bound for Chile in late summer and there is always the chance I will get knocked down at some point. Rigging failures are not funny, so I don't intend to suffer another one.

There is another risk that because I don't have any paperwork showing which company changed the rig, that it could have used Chinese wire and swages. The first sign of that is stranding next to the terminals. I really don't want to find out that what could have been a reputable company suffered another con artist selling that wire. Good stainless needs to go through a complex process of heat and chemical treatment during its manufacture that is expensive. Alas bad companies don't bother to do that and use well known forged labels. The last one I saw said Hasselfors on the wire drum.

I missed out that I'm not changing the lower shrouds, that is partly because they are under less load and easier to change if one does start leaking rust or strands at a terminal, but they look real good. There are some signs of rust from the backstay, and I have no idea how old the rig is.

 

[Lifeboater]

Surely if you increase the wire size
- in conditions which would have broken the original wire, something else will break instead
- you cannot crank up the tension to the same % of the wire strength without overstressing something

I don't think I would dare do that without some really joined up analysis of everything that might be affected...

I hope you are not saying that the Macwesters design involves weak hull attachments. In the past I had a Norseman terminal split open, a swage break, the rod rigging pull out of its terminal, (20 years of hard duty), a Chinese clevis pin snap and a upper shroud deck eye of a Mooring 50, (Worse than a Benny), chater boat pull clean out of the deck. 4mm is fine for a dinghy, but there is no way an sensible blue water sailor would say its good for anything mother nature decides to throw at it.

 

[Tranona]

I missed out that I'm not changing the lower shrouds, that is partly because they are under less load and easier to change if one does start leaking rust or strands at a terminal, but they look real good. There are some signs of rust from the backstay, and I have no idea how old the rig is.

You seem to be confusing the quality of materials with the size. Going up a size will not prevent failure due to poor quality material or swaging. Just get all the rigging including the lowers replaced by a reputable rigger.

This is not to deny the previous failures that you have experienced, but none of those seem to have been caused by the rigging being too small

As you will be in Poole, suggest you contact Dave Nicholson dnmarine.co.uk our local rigger who will advise you and make your stays correctly for you.

 

[Lifeboater]

You seem to be confusing the quality of materials with the size. Going up a size will not prevent failure due to poor quality material or swaging. Just get all the rigging including the lowers replaced by a reputable rigger.

This is not to deny the previous failures that you have experienced, but none of those seem to have been caused by the rigging being too small

As you will be in Poole, suggest you contact Dave Nicholson dnmarine.co.uk our local rigger who will advise you and make your stays correctly for you.

I agree that going up a size will not stop poor quality components causing a failure. Most of the failures I've had in the past were caused by old age, so one of the reasons for replacing most of the rig is because the present owner does not know how old it is. If I'm replacing the rig it makes sense to go up one size. The Rowan 22 was designed for coastal cruising, not serious blue water sailing. I can't think of one high time offshore sailor who would not advise moving up a size from 4mm. Some do like dyform, rather than normal 1x19 wire, but it does not stretch like normal rigging wire and that adds to peak loading.

I will ask a professional rigger to cut the shrouds et al to length and do the top only swages. I've had a nasty incident with a forestay failure caused by a professional rigger failing to bend back a cotter pin. He got fired after I had to turn back and I leant a real lesson about allowing others to do important jobs on a boat. So I will be making up the standing rigging using Stay Locks or Noresman terminals.

I have had a 4 mm stay fail on a 27ft dinghy at the lower shroud and the sailing school did move up to 5mm. The swage concerned was only 9 years old and the school replaced all rigging after 10 years of hard use. Never heard of a lower shroud failure causing a dismasting, other than those where a boom or pole impact caused the failure during an accidental gybe. I avoid those by fitting a boom brake rather than a preventer. If I can't find one, (Walder seem to be out of business), I will fit a normal preventer with an additional heavy bungee cord to allow the boom to move if the yacht gets knocked down. That type of impact can result in the boom snapping in two where the preventer is attached.

 

[Refueler]

Another "seriously". That is very odd reasoning. Your existing rig is more than strong enough and using larger fittings because they might not break in a collision just does not make sense - that is not what they are sized for and the chances of a collision breaking them is just about non existent.

I agree you should replace rigging of unknown age but take it all off, take it to a rigger and have him make up a direct replacement size for size including new rigging screws and toggles. There is no need to go to the expense of Staloks, swaged terminals are fine as the rigger will know the exact length.

Boats such as OP mentioned are usually with Talurit ends to the rigging .....

 

[Refueler]

Sorry "Lifeboater" .... but you read as someone not to go sailing with !! I've been on boats all my life .. I will be 69 in January ... and I have only ever had one stay failure and that was where the Snapdragon forestay pulled out of the stem. Basically relied on a nut embedded in the GRP and the stay bolt unscrewed with the action of the furler.
I replaced a cap shroud on my 25ft'r after catching the shroud on the harbour wall when mast was down ... error on my part.

The rigging apart from that cap shroud on that boat is well over 25yrs and I would not be concerned to sail that boat literally anywhere.

If you have had so many rig failures - I would start to ask myself why !!

 

[Lifeboater]

Boats such as OP mentioned are usually with Talurit ends to the rigging .....

You really must be smoking something special to use Talurit fittings, sort of OK with galvanised wire, but not with stainless due electrolytic corrosion: New rigging with "Talurit" fittings.

 

[Lifeboater]

Boats such as OP mentioned are usually with Talurit ends to the rigging .....

You really must be smoking something special to use Talurit unless you go back to

Sorry "Lifeboater" .... but you read as someone not to go sailing with !! I've been on boats all my life .. I will be 69 in January ... and I have only ever had one stay failure and that was where the Snapdragon forestay pulled out of the stem. Basically relied on a nut embedded in the GRP and the stay bolt unscrewed with the action of the furler.
I replaced a cap shroud on my 25ft'r after catching the shroud on the harbour wall when mast was down ... error on my part.

The rigging apart from that cap shroud on that boat is well over 25yrs and I would not be concerned to sail that boat literally anywhere.

If you have had so many rig failures - I would start to ask myself why !!

Main reason was old rigging and undersized fittings, along with professional finger trouble. What most folks don't comprehend is that a yacht like my last one, a Van der Stadt 34 will have done 100 times the number of cycles rig force wise of a weekend yacht does.

No one who sails offshore knows where they are ultimtely going to finish up or what conditions they will have to deal with, but there is a map of the Magellans straights on my wall, and that can be a very tough trip for what I regards as dinghy rigging.

I will need to take a good look at the furling gear, because they do fail. I've only had 2 break on my boats, a Hood Sea Furl extrusion that cracked near the lower end and a Hood Profurl drum that siezed up. The latter was due to the previous owner slightly damaging the upper seal when he dropped an anchor on it. I thought it would be OK, but it was not and I had to keep freeing it up by spraying WD 40 into the bearing until I made it into port. I doubt it would have caused an issue if I had not decided to route direct from St Helena to the Canary Islands in March, as I wanted to get back to Gran Canaria before the Marlin season starts. That involved 1K miles beat to windward into a strong NE trade wind that resulted in more wear and damage than the rest of the trip around. I beefed up the rig from 7 to 8mm.

 

[Tranona]

You really must be smoking something special to use Talurit unless you go back to


Main reason was old rigging and undersized fittings, along with professional finger trouble. What most folks don't comprehend is that a yacht like my last one, a Van der Stadt 34 will have done 100 times the number of cycles rig force wise of a weekend yacht does.

No one who sails offshore knows where they are ultimtely going to finish up or what conditions they will have to deal with, but there is a map of the Magellans straights on my wall, and that can be a very tough trip for what I regards as dinghy rigging.

I will need to take a good look at the furling gear, because they do fail. I've only had 2 break on my boats, a Hood Sea Furl extrusion that cracked near the lower end and a Hood Profurl drum that siezed up. The latter was due to the previous owner slightly damaging the upper seal when he dropped an anchor on it. I thought it would be OK, but it was not and I had to keep freeing it up by spraying WD 40 into the bearing until I made it into port. I doubt it would have caused an issue if I had not decided to route direct from St Helena to the Canary Islands in March, as I wanted to get back to Gran Canaria before the Marlin season starts. That involved 1K miles beat to windward into a strong NE trade wind that resulted in more wear and damage than the rest of the trip around. I beefed up the rig from 7 to 8mm.

This is all very well, but what are you intending doing with your Macwester? Suggest you speak to a qualified rigger like Dave. Odd that you consider the fittings undersize on a boat known for being overbuilt and yet not replace the lower shrouds?

Of course offshore boats that are sailed for long periods are subject to greater cycles and potentially shorter life which is why insurers are more demanding about rig condition and replacement, but that is very different from a small boat like your 22 footer.

 

[Refueler]

You really must be smoking something special to use Talurit fittings, sort of OK with galvanised wire, but not with stainless due electrolytic corrosion: New rigging with "Talurit" fittings.

Go round any yard ... marina .... and check to see how many boats have Talurit ..... it is common on boats up to ~26ft ....

One mistake made when Talurit used - is that some not so clever riggers press it TWICE .... they are designed to be pressed ONCE and ONCE only ... in the correct press machine set for the size / gauge. Pressing a second time often causes minute cracks in the Talurit and this can lead to failure. Talurit also come in various forms / materials.

Sorry - but I think you are smoking some special !!

 

[Lifeboater]

This is all very well, but what are you intending doing with your Macwester? Suggest you speak to a qualified rigger like Dave. Odd that you consider the fittings undersize on a boat known for being overbuilt and yet not replace the lower shrouds?

Of course offshore boats that are sailed for long periods are subject to greater cycles and potentially shorter life which is why insurers are more demanding about rig condition and replacement, but that is very different from a small boat like your 22 footer.

I plan to depart bound for Chile in late summer, I've only been down to Rio before in a Pacific seacraft Dana 24 which is very similar to the design of the Mac Rowan 22. Small boats are safer in a collision as it's very rare to get a full hull contact unless it's a fishing boat. You also lack a big cabin to get thrown across. On the negative side they are more likely to be rolled or even pitch poled. The other huge plus for a small boat is that if you do spring a leak, the hydraulic force is a fraction of that in a larger vessel, so much easier to deal with. Obviously the important thing with leaks is to have a loud alarm with a high water detector and 2 electric bilge pumps wired to different batteries, as it's very difficult to locate hull damage or leaks once they are underwater. The Beta 15 fitted to the boat I'm buying can't be hand started, so I will install a third battery just for emegencies.

Lower shrouds are under less load and a failure rarely causes the loss of the mast, unless it's from a pole impact or the boom during an accidental gype. I'm looking for a boom brake at present, as they are far better than fixed preventers. Oddly enough the boom has been joined near the attachment for the main sheet. Not sure if that is normal or if it was broken.

I had a Navik fitted to my long sold PS Dana 24, and whilst it was not as good as a Hydrovane, (Too big and 5 grand new), was OK and a real neat unit. Real pleased to have a stern anchor, (Small Fortress), and I alread have a stainless copy of a small Bruce as a spare. The Fortress is very easily bent. The main anchor will be a genuine 15lb ORIGINAL CQR with 50m of 6m chain before 50m 3 ply. The original 20lb CQR is far too rusty. Also looking to see if I can find a genuine Bruce in the used market. The Bruce does not hold as well as a GENUINE CQR, (The copies are real bad due incorrect weight on tip, wrong hinge action and rust issues), but works on a shorter scope and tends not to jam in rocks. I also carry a new early model Herreshoff, with a small bronze late model one for my Avon Redstart. They both work well on a 2 to 1 rope rode.

Alas the Navik is out of production and I can't find one listed second hand, so hoping to find an equivalent. Anyone see one for sale please PM me. Please my new Rowan already has an Autohelm tiller pilot. I will need a spare unit later.

 

[Refueler]

Where are you planning to sail this 22ft boat from ??

Couple months ago there was a ~30ft boat in Ventspils ... they'd sailed from Chile .... arrived here after long trip and many stops on the way ... hardly any English .. which made for interesting discussions with Yacht Harbour ... they stayed couple of days and then moved on.