MAB V AWB

Concerto said:
I do not want an AWB as I dislike the design of the hull shape and building methods. I am saying this not due to lack of funds as I could have bought a brand new fully equipped 32ft AWB when I bought my Fulmar. I chose what I felt what I felt was right for me and have then changed and improved things to get it right for me to sail singlehanded. She is almost back to a new condition and has cost only a third of what a new AWB would have cost.

The Fulmar is certainly a classic yacht. A few other classics with a racing pedigree could include the Twister, Contessa 32, S&S 34 and Sigma 33. Others yachts I feel could be included are Hustler 30, UFO 34 and Hustler 35.
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There's nothing classic I can see about the Fulmar, it's a white production boat with standard modern keel arrangement and built for cost and comfort. I would even imagine that the cockpit is relatively dry and it parks like a car at Tescos. The only reason it seems cheap is because you waited 30+ years to buy one. The BenJenBavs of 2023 will seem cheap to someone buying in 2050 too, there is always a premium for being first owner, although in most cases inflation takes care of that and losses are usually minimal when compared with maintenance costs of older boats.

I'm not questioning your choice, it's a lovely boat and you've done a good job of restoring it but realistically by any definition I've ever seen it's an average white production boat.
 
flaming said:
The weird thing about this AWB/ MAB debate is that if you just read this forum you’d assume that you could make a fortune from designing and building “traditional looking” cruising boats. As clearly there must be a massive market just fed up of the AWBs. But in fact just about everyone who tries it goes bust.
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I don't think anyone is under the illusion that there is anything other than a niche market for boats that prioritize sailing over comfort. Its about what people actually do with boats now. One marina 84% (or 86?) of boats didn't leave the marina in a year. Of the 16% how many go out in more than a F3/4 or very far? Most people want floating caravans. I'm surprised we don't see more of these. At least he's honest.

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flaming said:
I wasn’t aware that Matt Sheehan. Was a yacht designer. I thought he was a sailing journalist. What boats has he designed?
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He studied yacht design at Southampton University, so it's fair to say he knows a thing ot two about yacht design.
 
lustyd said:
There's nothing classic I can see about the Fulmar, it's a white production boat with standard modern keel arrangement and built for cost and comfort. I would even imagine that the cockpit is relatively dry and it parks like a car at Tescos. The only reason it seems cheap is because you waited 30+ years to buy one. The BenJenBavs of 2023 will seem cheap to someone buying in 2050 too, there is always a premium for being first owner, although in most cases inflation takes care of that and losses are usually minimal when compared with maintenance costs of older boats.

I'm not questioning your choice, it's a lovely boat and you've done a good job of restoring it but realistically by any definition I've ever seen it's an average white production boat.
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It's well qbove average in my opinion. They handle rough weather very well and not extreme in their design and have few vices. Thr beam is not too wide, the stern is not to wide. They don't rely on form stability to the extent of a modern yacht. They are well balanced. A good allround yacht that will look after the skipper
 
Concerto said:
You are the first to say that, but I am not sure I agree. There is just no exact definition as to when AWB started or what features makes them one. Yacht design has been evolving since the late 1950's. The long keel narrow beam yachts with a 50% ballast ratio have changed to: separate keel and rudder, increased beam and reduced ballast radio. Also the change was partially due to the change from RORC to IOR racing rule, which also changed the position of the mast and reduced the genoa size and increased the very short foot of the mainsail. The next major change was the change of how boats were constructed in mass production factories and then the introduction of EU Recreational Craft Directive. So what defines an AWB?
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He’s definitely not the first to say it. Perhaps the first time you’ve noticed.
Just look at the Fulmar, there is nothing classic about it . It’s the epitome of an old AWB.
Nothing wrong with that but she isn’t winning any beauty contests any time soon.
 
geem said:
It's well qbove average in my opinion. They handle rough weather very well and not extreme in their design and have few vices. Thr beam is not too wide, the stern is not to wide. They don't rely on form stability to the extent of a modern yacht. They are well balanced. A good allround yacht that will look after the skipper
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I didn't say it was bad, they are fine boats. Your own description suggests they are about average in every way which backs up my statement that they aren't a classic, which would usually require something special.
 
geem said:
They don't rely on form stability to the extent of a modern yacht. They are well balanced
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OK I was a little curious so compared the numbers with a Sun Odyssey 32.2, which I assume we can all agree is an AWB from the late '90s.

The SO32.2 has a better comfort ratio, faster speed, higher sail area/displacement ratio and would appear to have nicer accommodation. What is it you have against form stability if it's not comfort, speed, or accommodation?

FULMAR 32 (WESTERLY) - sailboatdata

SUN ODYSSEY 32.2 (JEANNEAU) - sailboatdata
 
Minerva said:
Very true. Well known that in 40kts of wind an AWB's keel will fall off, it's rudder be snapped like matchsticks and everyone on board will drown.

Any sailor who's seen 40kts in a AWB's never lived to tell the tail.

🙄
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This AWB skipper nearly thought about taking his bimini down in 40 knots. I have noticed over the years how much difference it makes on the perception of sea state/danger/fear whether the sun is shinning or not.

 
Were Alec Rose's "Lively Lady" or Robin Knox Johnston's "Suhaili" classic boats? As designed I don't think so, but the efforts of their owners to adapt them and their achievements give them classic status. Without care they would go downhill fast.

Concerto's Fulmar is something of a classic owing to the quality of maintenance and restoration, plus his round Britain trip.

No reason why almost any boat design can't be equipped and sailed on interesting voyages - many mass produced boats are. The biggest difference I see is whether you are happy with the ex factory design as is (which many rightly are) or whether you feel the need to modify, enhance, and with the passing of time, restore your boat.

The YM featured Contessa in #69 is clearly more than a standard boat, equipped for a certain type of sailing. Doubtless many modern mass produced designs could be similarly equipped and make a decent fist of the same test (eg Patrick Laine's Bavaria).
 
geem said:
A quote from Matt Sheahan, yacht designer and participant in the 1979 race
'What worries me is that the lessons from the 1979 Fastnet get forgotten. Most yachts have better stability characteristics now, partly because of regulations but also because they are generally getting bigger, so they have more form stability anyway. But by the time you add in mast-furling, furling staysails, and all the other bits of kit on the mast, the centre of gravity starts to creep up and you have a problem again. There’s a trend to make cruising boats look like fancy hotel foyers down below, to make them more appealing to the family. But the minute the boat heels over, it’s a nightmare to get across. With nothing to hold onto, someone’s going to get hurt. There’s also a move towards fine bows and over-wide sterns, making boats harder to steer downwind. So stability might be better, but the handling is getting worse.’
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Matt is a journalist not a designer. The old saw about the added weight of furling sails is just not correct for 2 reasons. First he is referring to what was going on at the time which was adding these items to boat that were designed without them and second when furling mainsails are designed in from the start the overall weight of the mast and sail is similar to a slab reefing set up because the section of the mast is smaller. Designers know all about this and if you look at the data the AVS is usually the same for either arrangement. The steering downwind does have some validity - but as others have pointed out there were some horrors among older designs, particularly those influenced by IOR. More recent hull forms for example the use of chines at the stern and twin rudders offer excellent control down wind.

I don't see a rash of reports of people getting injured in modern wide beam boats. Remember his sailing was very much in the bash to windward for hours on end style which is very different from how family cruising boats are used these days.
 
Tranona said:
The steering downwind does have some validity - but as others have pointed out there were some horrors among older designs, particularly those influenced by IOR. More recent hull forms for example the use of chines at the stern and twin rudders offer excellent control down wind.
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You would think so, since the IMOCAs use that set up, but look how massively different an IMOCA hull shape is and rudder length are compared to the same set up on a modern cruising boat. It's already been reported on this forum in the past about how terrible a Southerly 42RST handles down wind in a blow in Biscay. The wide arse design and shallow twin rudders did it no favours.
I had a long chat with a guy who sailed a Discovery with twin rudders across the pond last winter. He was scathing about the design and shallow rudders. He lost control of the boat numerous times under autopilot in following seas, simply because the shallow rudders left the water and the boat rounded up.
He would be sat at the nav station and spat out ending up in the galley across the boat.
Thr points made by Matt are valid even if you don't agree with them
 
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