MAB V AWB

[Tranona]

They are all classic boats, maybe not the Laser, that's just a great boat. The point is, throughout time, some boats become classic. What out of the modern offering will ever become a classic with a cult following like a Contessa 32?
The Fastnet report highlighted inadequacies in design but did we really learn much 40 odd years later? We now have glued in windows that fail. Brass seacocks on new boats, lightweight deck gear to save money, high volume hulls and relatively little ballast. This is the AWB. Perfect for marina hopping because that's what people want

Have we learned? yes we can now make safe boats that are not narrow gutted and heavily ballasted. Don't forget that many of the boats from the 80s, particularly those biased toward IOR would never pass stability for Cat A which modern AWBs do comfortably. Once again you ignore the thousands of AWBs that go offshore cruising without any dramas. You may not like them but their owners do. Boats, particularly from Europe have ALWAYS had brass seacocks so no big deal. Deck gear is matched to the requirements of boats and their intended usage and in most cases vastly superior to older kit.

 

[Juan Twothree]

I hate TLAs.

Point of order..... They're initialisations rather than acronyms.

An acronym is where the initials are pronounced as a word, such as NATO or ERNIE.

Sorry, I'll get my anorak.

 

[capnsensible]

Point of order..... They're initialisations rather than acronyms.

An acronym is where the initials are pronounced as a word, such as NATO or ERNIE.

Sorry, I'll get my anorak.

What about abbreviations? Shouldn't they be heard?

 

[geem]

Have we learned? yes we can now make safe boats that are not narrow gutted and heavily ballasted. Don't forget that many of the boats from the 80s, particularly those biased toward IOR would never pass stability for Cat A which modern AWBs do comfortably. Once again you ignore the thousands of AWBs that go offshore cruising without any dramas. You may not like them but their owners do. Boats, particularly from Europe have ALWAYS had brass seacocks so no big deal. Deck gear is matched to the requirements of boats and their intended usage and in most cases vastly superior to older kit.

A quote from Matt Sheahan, yacht designer and participant in the 1979 race
'What worries me is that the lessons from the 1979 Fastnet get forgotten. Most yachts have better stability characteristics now, partly because of regulations but also because they are generally getting bigger, so they have more form stability anyway. But by the time you add in mast-furling, furling staysails, and all the other bits of kit on the mast, the centre of gravity starts to creep up and you have a problem again. There’s a trend to make cruising boats look like fancy hotel foyers down below, to make them more appealing to the family. But the minute the boat heels over, it’s a nightmare to get across. With nothing to hold onto, someone’s going to get hurt. There’s also a move towards fine bows and over-wide sterns, making boats harder to steer downwind. So stability might be better, but the handling is getting worse.’

 

[Adios]

This MAB will be a bargain for someone sailing boats and yachts for sale | eBay

Bargain!!! Damn the marina waiting list

 

[Bobc]

The Westerlies of the late 60s/early 70s were AWB's (Tiger, Centaur, Pentland, etc.) They are now MABs
The Westerlies of the 80s (Storm, Konsort, etc.) are, I would say, now on the verge of becoming MABs.
The Beneteau's of the 80s are also getting that way (First 29/30E/305/325/345 etc.), and were all AWBs in their day.

My early 2000's Bavaria has started to get a lot of compliments on her looks over the past few years, because it looks "classic and pretty" compared to the current AWBs with their plumb bows, fat arses, and big square windows in the hull. I suspect in another 20 years, it will be thought of as an MAB.

 

[Daydream believer]

There’s also a move towards fine bows and over-wide sterns, making boats harder to steer downwind. So stability might be better, but the handling is getting worse.’

You must be dreaming
You have never heard of the Holman roll then. My current boat sails down wind beautifully but I have sailed a number of Holman designs & down wind is not in their skill set. I recall sailing on one of his Bowman designs. A Bowman 45 I think it was. It rolled like an absolute pig. I know that my friends Hanse 445 sails down wind with no drama whatsoever.

 

[Daydream believer]

I had a brand new Stella back in 1968. No 104. In 1998 I wanted to buy it back, but was unable. So I bought No 103 as a wreck. I stripped it to a bare hull in my joinery works. Totally rebuilt it & due to it being rove sick, I had it sand blasted inside & out. Blew all the rotten bits out & rebuilt those parts. I then sheaved it in 300grm Matt & epoxy, externally & resin coated it internally. Fitted new decks & deck beams & bulkheads etc.
The work took me 3 years ( which was the best part of it) & I built it exactly as my first Stella. Believe me when I say that I did not spare any expense on its construction. I had 2 joiners who had served their appreticeships building boats in the london docks on my staff, so I made sure that the work was repaired correctly. Although I did most of the work myself.

When I finally got to sail it, it was as tight as a drum. But then I suddenly realised how bloody uncomfortable old wooden boats really were. The cockpit had a hard side that hurt my back when it heeled over. There was little room inside. Headroom was non existent. The list goes on. Sailed like a witch, but so darned uncomfortable

In the beginning they were one of the few "class", racing boats to get to 100+ being built, (the big UK production companies were only just beginning then) which, at the time was a testament to their brilliance. Of course there were open dayboats etc. but this one design was unusual in its growth. 8 were ordered within a couple of weeks of the first one winning every race of Burnham week, having being launched the day before the start.
Kim Holman followed it with the Twister & from comments on this thread, we know how the design evolved into a success.

But for all that, the darned thing had to go. I was so bruised it was ridiculous. I soon realised it was just a distant memory & time had erased the disadvantages of this aged design.

I bought a Hanse & my world changed-- for the better- It was a revelation
Give me my AWB every time.

 

[Concerto]

We need to change this a bit. MAB becomes WOB (wonderful old boat) AWB becomes CNB (crappy new boat) a CNB will never become a WOB. It becomes a COB

I have a MOB - modernised old boat. My Fulmar is 43 years old and can still attract a lot of attention from sailors and non-sailors alike. However compared to most other yachts of a similar age, Concerto seems to sparkle.

 

[Dellquay13]

Go on, someone explain to me, I obviously wasn’t listening in Forum 101.
AWB I guess is average white boat, but what exactly is MAB?

 

[Supertramp]

Good design will shine through after decades, with many different designs achieving this from pretty to functional. It comes down to appearamce and whether they work for their owners.

Proper maintenance, restoration and improvements will keep almost any boat going and despite the concerns about lightweight designs and fittings there don't seem to be queues of yachts for breaking up. Possible exception if the basic structure is failing (old marine ply, steel for example).

Acronyms and abbreviations create categories but I think the edges are so blurry between categories that it creates more confusion than clarity.

 

[geem]

You must be dreaming
You have never heard of the Holman roll then. My current boat sails down wind beautifully but I have sailed a number of Holman designs & down wind is not in their skill set. I recall sailing on one of his Bowman designs. A Bowman 45 I think it was. It rolled like an absolute pig. I know that my friends Hanse 445 sails down wind with no drama whatsoever.

That wasn't me. That was a yacht designer and participant in the 1979 race. Read the post again.
Th big Hanse that had catastrophic steering failure a couple of years ago on the ARC, their crew were picked up by an Oyster 55. They commented on how great the Oyster felt compared to the Hanse in rough weather.

 

[LittleSister]

Go on, someone explain to me, I obviously wasn’t listening in Forum 101.
AWB I guess is average white boat, but what exactly is MAB?

AWB = Average White Boat

MAB = Manky Auld Boat

 

[LittleSister]

I have a MOB - modernised old boat. My Fulmar is 43 years old and can still attract a lot of attention from sailors and non-sailors alike. However compared to most other yachts of a similar age, Concerto seems to sparkle.

What you have there is a very smart MAB!

The test is to see it though the eyes of the putative detractor. Polish it all you like, but it's never going to make it an AWB. (Thank goodness!)

Hang on to it long enough, and it becomes a classic, but still a MAB!

 

[Praxinoscope]

I suppose both of my most recent boats come under the terminology of MAB, the Invicta 26 was built in 1965 really classic lines and sailed beautifully though cramped down below, but we still did plenty of miles in her, my current boat is a 1981 Sadler 25 more room down below, pleasing lines, sails well, not a heavy weather boat like the Invicta, but still great to sail.

 

[penfold]

Sigma 33 is clearly an AWB on hull volume alone, albeit a transition case as the interior layout is stodgily old fashioned.

S&S 34 has the same cramped coalmine interior as a C32, both are MABs but very nice ones.

Contessa 32 most definitely a (great) MAB.

Sigma 33 & S&S 34 MABs, too, but getting a bit marginal.

 

[Daydream believer]

That wasn't me. That was a yacht designer and participant in the 1979 race. Read the post again.
Th big Hanse that had catastrophic steering failure a couple of years ago on the ARC, their crew were picked up by an Oyster 55. They commented on how great the Oyster felt compared to the Hanse in rough weather.

One boat-- the cost (relatively) 3 times the price. Marvelous comparison.

 

[Poignard]

You have never heard of the Holman roll then. My current boat sails down wind beautifully but I have sailed a number of Holman designs & down wind is not in their skill set. I recall sailing on one of his Bowman designs. A Bowman 45 I think it was. It rolled like an absolute pig. I know that my friends Hanse 445 sails down wind with no drama whatsoever.

Are you talking about sailing dead downwind or on a broad reach?

I always prefer to sail downwind on a series of broad reaches. Makes life easier and we seem to get along just as quickly.

 

[Daydream believer]

View attachment 159250

Sigma 33 is clearly an AWB on hull volume alone, albeit a transition case as the interior layout is stodgily old fashioned.

S&S 34 has the same cramped coalmine interior as a C32, both are MABs but very nice ones.

Sigma 33s are well past their sell by dates. Be lucky to find many decent ones. Now definitely in the MAB category.

 

[Daydream believer]

Are you talking about sailing dead downwind or on a broad reach?

I always prefer to sail downwind on a series of broad reaches. Makes life easier and we seem to get along just as quickly.

Triy sailing all over the place down the River Crouch, The Orwell, or the Black Deep when the wind is up the chuff.