johnalison
Well-known member
awol seems think it American. Nevertheless, although he may be expert at tying up kayaks, I will stick to my round turns.
Locking turn or OXXO on a cleat
- Thread starter tudorsailor
- Start date
Blue Sunray
Well-known member
awol
Well-known member
Boat US appears to be colonial in nature. I didn't actually listen to the soundtrack before posting - the naffness of the cleating method was quite enough for me. Maybe some bored journo could do a bit of research to find the optimum cleating configuration?
johnalison
Well-known member
I await with interest, but Blue Sunray doesn't care.
dslittle
Well-known member
I’ve never really thought about it that much but, now that I do, I think that this is exactly how I cleat off. I would imagine that we’ve used this method a few thousand times in all types of weather (we tend to move every other day during the summer, Passeport Escale members will understand!!!) and leaving the boat on a pontoon over the winter a number of times so it seems to work.
It’s quite a while since I learned how to do it ‘properly’...
Sandy
Well-known member
Simple rule on my boat, if anybody does an OXO with a locking turn they need to supply a bottle of Highland Park 12 year old.
Several years ago we had the devils job to get a strange concoction of a back to front, twisted and locked OXO off a cleat with a 3 knot tide running along the pontoon, the chap had been taught by an American.
Several years ago we had the devils job to get a strange concoction of a back to front, twisted and locked OXO off a cleat with a 3 knot tide running along the pontoon, the chap had been taught by an American.
TernVI
Well-known member
If you can do that many turns on most yachts' cleats, your rope is too thin!
Personally I will do what seems right in the circumstances. I sometimes use a locking turn, soemtimes a rope doesn't feel secure with the turns you can fit on, the rope is stiff, the mooring is bouncy?
Maybe one day I will find that's the wrong choice and have to cut a rope. Better that than find it was what I needed and the boat breaks free or whatever. I can afford a new rope, new boat will be a lot of paperwork.
Sometimes the answer is to put what O'sand X's you can on the cleat, then use a smaller line to lash it.
CLB
Well-known member
Never once, in 30 years, have I had a locking turn jam.
johnalison
Well-known member
Me neither, and make it 50 years, but I seldom ever make up a cleat ashore, usually taking a loop. Many cleats are low stress lines, such as flag halyards and lines for the spinnaker uphaul, so I am not concerned. I think the 'whatever seems appropriate' comment is about right, though I would wish to avoid errors such as omitting the round turn.
tudorsailor
Well-known member
This is a great video explaining 3 types of locking turn on a cleat. I do the full wrap for mooring lines.
TS
TS
Poignard
Well-known member
That is what Eric Hiscock warns of in "Cruising Under Sail" ,
Stemar
Well-known member
Well, I was taught to put a locking turn on the cleat on my Dazed Kipper course close to 20 years ago then, a few years later the OXXO recommendation came along. I can see the logic, so I use OXXO on my mooring lines. However, for low stress stuff like flag halliards - and other stuff I don't want to work loose on vertical cleats, but am unlikely to want to undo in a hurry, like the genny halliard, I do put a lock on.
I think it boils down to the fact that mooring lines can get significant shock loads that can tighten them over time, the others, that I do lock off, are under more or less constant tension. I do know that poorly made off lines - after someone's taken another line off, for example - can be a bugger to get undone. The worst is the person who doesn't put a round turn, then locks every turn he does. I came close to cutting my line off a few months ago. The ideal seems to be to use an eye on a cleat ashore and have the knitting on board, which has two advantages; it allows more lines on the cleat if things are getting crowded and the muppet who can't do it properly only has to drop the loop back over the cleat, which is harder, though not impossible, to get wrong.
I think it boils down to the fact that mooring lines can get significant shock loads that can tighten them over time, the others, that I do lock off, are under more or less constant tension. I do know that poorly made off lines - after someone's taken another line off, for example - can be a bugger to get undone. The worst is the person who doesn't put a round turn, then locks every turn he does. I came close to cutting my line off a few months ago. The ideal seems to be to use an eye on a cleat ashore and have the knitting on board, which has two advantages; it allows more lines on the cleat if things are getting crowded and the muppet who can't do it properly only has to drop the loop back over the cleat, which is harder, though not impossible, to get wrong.
dunedin
Well-known member
Ditto. And done a LOT of clearing and uncleating in that time. And boat stays afloat all year round in marina believe me, ropes are under huge tension in a F10+, for which we have had quite a few over the years.
I ignore all the “one rule must be applied to all” types. Anybody who stops to think might realise it depends a lot on the precise shape of cleats and types/sizes of ropes used.
With our stainless steel cleats, no matter how tightly clear off ropes with 3 -4 turns, in F9 plus the bottom layers move very slightly over a 48 hour storm. I have never ever had a locking turn jam. But I am absolutely certain I would rather have a winter mooring rope jam than work free.
RupertW
Well-known member
I’ve never had one jam either, and always apply a locking turn on the boat end. At the pontoon end of the rope I use a locking turn when tying up but change that to a bowline if leaving the boat for a while or if the cleat is likely to be used by another rope. I have had one of those jam after 5 months away a bit of water and a spike dealt with that fairly easily once I took the tension off.
Slowboat35
Well-known member
It strikes me that what's needed is some simple common dog to be applied to much of this dogma.
There is no reason I can see for condemning a locking turn on a properly made-up cleat - except - perhaps where the rope is traditional hemp or similar which as others have pointed out may be capable of swelling or being crippled by the turn.
Any rope can potentially jam in a locking turn over an incorrectly made-up cleat (not that I've ever seen or heard of it happening first-hand.) but only if the rope slips badly around the cleat beneath it - a vanishingly unlikely scenario.
An OXO, let alone an OXXO is perfectly capable of handling any load commensurate with the correct size of rope and cleat without slipping, possibly slippery dyneema etc (of which I know little) benefits from the extra X.
A locking turn can only jam if the turns beneath it slip and transfer very considerable - not slight - very substantial tension to it - a very rare situation indeed. That being the case, why forbid its use?
Think of the dynamics of friction used to snub a rope. We all lknow that even half a turn around a cleat or bollard is sufficient to pull even multi-ton boat up all-standing with little tension needing to be applied to the tail, indeed if ovedone it can stretch the rope to an alarming degree and alarm one for the integrity of the cleat with the huge shockload available.
Think too how much tension can be held with two, let alone three simple (ie not overridng) turns on a winch with only ounces of tension applied to the tail. (nowhere even remotely enough to jam a locking turn on a cleat)
But add a riding turn to the winch and we all also know what huge tension is required to break that self-generated friction grip.
A cleat is similar in principle to a winch in that it uses the rope's tension to add friction and minimise slip. O equals once around the winch - but the cleat's odd shape (small radius corners) probably makes this even more effective than a smooth, broad, continuous winch barrel. If you merely went around the cleat twice more you'd have a rock solid grip given a little tension on the tail, but instead (first X) we add ¾ more of a turn before crossing over the standing part and cramping it over the top of the cleat in what's effectively a riding turn that will self-tighten if there is any slip. That's already got far more grip than twice around a winch. Add a further O and the thing's locked solid with effectively two more grabs at the cleat.
That's four half-turns with a self-clamping riding turn sandwiched in the middle for a simple OXO!
No reason not to add a second X but I suspect in almost all, if not all cases that is pure overkill.
What most assuredly won't happen in either case is sufficient slip to occur to pull tension past that first entire turn (when only half stops a moving boat dead - a load more than ever seen anywhere else in a cleat/ropes life) , followed by a self-locking turn that tightens the more load is put on it, and a further turn to boot.
So why not use a locking turn?
Personally I only use them when I want to be assured that wind, weather or outside influences - a kick or stumble for instance, won't wash, blow or otherwise move the final O off it's proper position. I don't want to lose that, an in my absence from the boat I want to be assured that it won't happen so I'd use a locking turn then. The last O is what ensures the X locks the first O in place. This is simply another belt on top of what is already already belt on braces.
That's their sole real use imho, to avoid the risk of the last O from coming undone which might, given additional misfortune, lead to a slippage but I struggle to see why their use elsewhere is ill advised, let alone forbidden.
As an aside, an extension of this thinking is my habit of dealing with a mooring-strop soft-eye over a bow-cleat. I see many people do a lovely manoeuvre up to the bouy, haul up the 20ton short strop, drop it over a cleat and go below for the night. Am I being anal in imagining that strop flopping around with no tension on it, maybe even geting a bit of a push or twist as the boat overrides it as wind/tide turns and slipping it off the cleat? I always use a sail tie or a metre of 6mm line led under the strop and OXO'd over the cleat to ensure it can't just drop/pop unravel off until someone's untied it first - rather as I see the use of a locking turn.
Or should I never attach directly to the strop and always employ a secondary line between strop and cleat? (thereby introducing an additonal and arguably unnecessary point of failure?)
Discuss....
There is no reason I can see for condemning a locking turn on a properly made-up cleat - except - perhaps where the rope is traditional hemp or similar which as others have pointed out may be capable of swelling or being crippled by the turn.
Any rope can potentially jam in a locking turn over an incorrectly made-up cleat (not that I've ever seen or heard of it happening first-hand.) but only if the rope slips badly around the cleat beneath it - a vanishingly unlikely scenario.
An OXO, let alone an OXXO is perfectly capable of handling any load commensurate with the correct size of rope and cleat without slipping, possibly slippery dyneema etc (of which I know little) benefits from the extra X.
A locking turn can only jam if the turns beneath it slip and transfer very considerable - not slight - very substantial tension to it - a very rare situation indeed. That being the case, why forbid its use?
Think of the dynamics of friction used to snub a rope. We all lknow that even half a turn around a cleat or bollard is sufficient to pull even multi-ton boat up all-standing with little tension needing to be applied to the tail, indeed if ovedone it can stretch the rope to an alarming degree and alarm one for the integrity of the cleat with the huge shockload available.
Think too how much tension can be held with two, let alone three simple (ie not overridng) turns on a winch with only ounces of tension applied to the tail. (nowhere even remotely enough to jam a locking turn on a cleat)
But add a riding turn to the winch and we all also know what huge tension is required to break that self-generated friction grip.
A cleat is similar in principle to a winch in that it uses the rope's tension to add friction and minimise slip. O equals once around the winch - but the cleat's odd shape (small radius corners) probably makes this even more effective than a smooth, broad, continuous winch barrel. If you merely went around the cleat twice more you'd have a rock solid grip given a little tension on the tail, but instead (first X) we add ¾ more of a turn before crossing over the standing part and cramping it over the top of the cleat in what's effectively a riding turn that will self-tighten if there is any slip. That's already got far more grip than twice around a winch. Add a further O and the thing's locked solid with effectively two more grabs at the cleat.
That's four half-turns with a self-clamping riding turn sandwiched in the middle for a simple OXO!
No reason not to add a second X but I suspect in almost all, if not all cases that is pure overkill.
What most assuredly won't happen in either case is sufficient slip to occur to pull tension past that first entire turn (when only half stops a moving boat dead - a load more than ever seen anywhere else in a cleat/ropes life) , followed by a self-locking turn that tightens the more load is put on it, and a further turn to boot.
So why not use a locking turn?
Personally I only use them when I want to be assured that wind, weather or outside influences - a kick or stumble for instance, won't wash, blow or otherwise move the final O off it's proper position. I don't want to lose that, an in my absence from the boat I want to be assured that it won't happen so I'd use a locking turn then. The last O is what ensures the X locks the first O in place. This is simply another belt on top of what is already already belt on braces.
That's their sole real use imho, to avoid the risk of the last O from coming undone which might, given additional misfortune, lead to a slippage but I struggle to see why their use elsewhere is ill advised, let alone forbidden.
As an aside, an extension of this thinking is my habit of dealing with a mooring-strop soft-eye over a bow-cleat. I see many people do a lovely manoeuvre up to the bouy, haul up the 20ton short strop, drop it over a cleat and go below for the night. Am I being anal in imagining that strop flopping around with no tension on it, maybe even geting a bit of a push or twist as the boat overrides it as wind/tide turns and slipping it off the cleat? I always use a sail tie or a metre of 6mm line led under the strop and OXO'd over the cleat to ensure it can't just drop/pop unravel off until someone's untied it first - rather as I see the use of a locking turn.
Or should I never attach directly to the strop and always employ a secondary line between strop and cleat? (thereby introducing an additonal and arguably unnecessary point of failure?)
Discuss....
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Uricanejack
Well-known member
awol
Well-known member
It's all false news, so so false. And we won with all the legal votes, the rest are all so illegal.So what is Trump recommendation,
Poignard
Well-known member
I just do what Eric Hiscock, a man who seemed to know what he was talking about, recommended in "Cruising Under Sail" : a round turn followed by Xs , and finally a couple of round turns or, if desired and if the rope is not likey to swell, a locking hitch.
LadyInBed
Well-known member
NotBirdseye
Well-known member
This is an interesting video, I was taught the 0800 method and seems to concur with the suggested method. (well 000800 at any rate). What I hadn't realized was how susceptible to line slippage the other techniques could be. This thread now makes it clear why I shouldn't use a locking turn, something that I hadn't understood when raised in another thread here. I think I might be tempted to add another X just before the final full loop.
I also spotted: Cleat Hitch (Halyard)
So while a locking turn is okay for smaller boats (relatively low load) it is just best all around to use OXO or 0800 or even 08800.