Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
We will. My broker is currently moored next to us in Cowes, coincidentally
Lithium. Really?
- Thread starter zoidberg
- Start date
Rappey
Well-Known Member
I have a led lenser torch with a 16850 cell which is often used and was new in 2012 and still working at a reasonable level. Some of my makita batteries must be around a similar age and also still seem ok.
That's a difficult one to get around as virtually every item that has a lithium battery states in the instructions "never leave charging unattended" .
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AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
It applies to installed lithium house batteries as well.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Are we certain it doesn’t apply to lead house batteries? I’d be amazed if an insurer paid out if a charger had been left on leading to a fire.
zoidberg
Well-Known Member
Contrary to public perceptions/presumptions above, my thoughts on a new lithium battery installation on a relatively old, small sailboat are quite positive.
I face replacement of some ageing AGM LA units - with recharging via solar and alternator, and only rarely via marina VAC. The costs and benefits outlined above are certainly attractive. I've been delving for the 'contras' as well as the 'pros'..... hence this thread.
It seems that I would be well advised to ensure a professional installation. I made inquiries. A pro rewire, at least in part, is indicated - and I'm not averse to that, but the pros I've contacted are. I was told by a well-known pro installer that 'it wasn't worthwhile' for my purposes. And I'd likely still need to retain an AGM LA unit for engine starts, with associated charging facility.
The other important 'gotcha' which has emerged through posts above is a marked reluctance by insurers. That is significant.
I've tackled many DIY jobs with good success, and will happily replace electrical items that are 'mechanical' in nature - e.g. running cabling, mounting switch panels, substituting this for that - but a DIY change to a wholly sound LiFePO4 system is 'a bridge too far'.
There isn't a marine electrician around here, and I wouldn't have confidence in a 'van converter'.
Any better ideas?
I face replacement of some ageing AGM LA units - with recharging via solar and alternator, and only rarely via marina VAC. The costs and benefits outlined above are certainly attractive. I've been delving for the 'contras' as well as the 'pros'..... hence this thread.
It seems that I would be well advised to ensure a professional installation. I made inquiries. A pro rewire, at least in part, is indicated - and I'm not averse to that, but the pros I've contacted are. I was told by a well-known pro installer that 'it wasn't worthwhile' for my purposes. And I'd likely still need to retain an AGM LA unit for engine starts, with associated charging facility.
The other important 'gotcha' which has emerged through posts above is a marked reluctance by insurers. That is significant.
I've tackled many DIY jobs with good success, and will happily replace electrical items that are 'mechanical' in nature - e.g. running cabling, mounting switch panels, substituting this for that - but a DIY change to a wholly sound LiFePO4 system is 'a bridge too far'.
There isn't a marine electrician around here, and I wouldn't have confidence in a 'van converter'.
Any better ideas?
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Is it? Specifically what if your insurers stance on lead acid? If you had a fire related to your DIY install would they pay out? I think there’s a LOT of assumption here about how insurers see lead, and since nobody is asking that question it looks like there’s no issue.
There were no insurance issues with Lithium until people started asking…
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
Not true. Restrictions on charging lithium batteries specifically mentioned in Bishop Skinner and GJW policies. No restrictions on any other battery types mentioned. No need to ask, only read. Your policy may be different.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
I think you’re underestimating what happens during a claim. They don’t have to write everything down, they just need to show negligence to avoid paying. Self install of ANYTHING that is related to the claim would be a red flag. Leaving any system on and unattended would likewise be a red flag.
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
While that may or not be the case, leaving a lithium system on charge unattended is specifically excluded from cover from the 2 insurers I mentioned.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Which would only affect you if it caught fire. My point was that a lot of forum members are getting their knickers in a twist over this. If you leave lead acid on charge unattended and it catches fire, your insurance company would probably also consider you liable for the fire. What’s the material difference?
Pye_End
Well-Known Member
jamie N
Well-Known Member
This raises an interesting point. Would batteries connected to a solar panel be considered as being "on charge" and "unattended"?
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
Yes.
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
I'm not getting into a discussion about what is or is not covered in various insurance policies regarding power sources other than lithium. The only point I am making is that at least 2 major marine insurance companies have restrictions on the use of lithium batteries written into their policies which may make a lithium install inappropriate for some individuals. I can post the wording if required. Everyone should check their own policy or talk to their insurer if they are unsure. My undercrackers remains untwisted.
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doug748
Well-Known Member
Best idea is to carry on with keeping it simple. (If you will forgive two clichés in one sentence)
For a small cruising boat with rustic facilities any marginal advantage is not worth the arse or the risk.
.
davethedog
Well-Known Member
Am thinking of going lifepo4 and asked our insurance company about them as would want to ideally self install and this is the reply:
"We would be grateful if you would provide some more details please regarding your possible LiFePO4 installation.
Please be advised that, with regard to the lithium battery system, this should be professionally specified and installed. It would be expected to be professionally signed off by a marine electrician.
The information underwriters would require, for their consideration and approval, is as follows: -
Please confirm the make, model and type of the / any lithium batteries, that the batteries are marine grade and are specified by their manufacturers as being suitable for use in a marine environment, their storage, securing, ventilation, temperature control measures, any battery management system (BMS) and charging methods.
Please note that if the batteries are self-installed, Underwriters would place an exclusion on the policy until such a time that they are signed off by a professional marine electrician.
We hope that this helps to answer your query. Please do not hesitate to get in touch whenever we may be of assistance."
"We would be grateful if you would provide some more details please regarding your possible LiFePO4 installation.
Please be advised that, with regard to the lithium battery system, this should be professionally specified and installed. It would be expected to be professionally signed off by a marine electrician.
The information underwriters would require, for their consideration and approval, is as follows: -
Please confirm the make, model and type of the / any lithium batteries, that the batteries are marine grade and are specified by their manufacturers as being suitable for use in a marine environment, their storage, securing, ventilation, temperature control measures, any battery management system (BMS) and charging methods.
Please note that if the batteries are self-installed, Underwriters would place an exclusion on the policy until such a time that they are signed off by a professional marine electrician.
We hope that this helps to answer your query. Please do not hesitate to get in touch whenever we may be of assistance."
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Yup, so would leaving your iPhone on charge overnight.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
That was expressly forbidden on our cruise ship.
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
Not true on my policy. The restrictions only apply to devices with lithium batteries over 60 Wh. Phones, tablets, most laptops, some power tools, most torches, personal care items are all under the limit. Torqeedos and their ilk all above it.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
A guy on the South Coast Dragonfly group has just had his DF28 converted to electric propulsion, he has 17Kwh of battery. I think most of us here are insured through the same broker as most of us knew him sailing beach cats years ago. He has one of these bad boys in each outrigger.
