Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
And LiPO4 is a factory option on the 40.
Lithium. Really?
- Thread starter zoidberg
- Start date
stranded
Well-Known Member
I had the exchange below with Pants. As ever, they are eminently sensible. Bottom line is if I have screwed up anything, to do with any part of the boat, I expect a claim to be ‘complicated’ - the policy conditions are “more like guidelines”.
Having done the install myself with the invaluable advice on here, and having had the installation checked and OKed by two marine electricians, I am confident that with the install and the inherent safety of LifePo it is low down on the list of things I need to worry about.
Me:
“Thank you. This is probably a good time to notify you that I am proposing to change the service battery bank to LifePo4 this winter. The system I am planning will comprise:
- Fogstar Drift 460AH LifePo4 battery with internal Bluetooth BMS
- Shorepower charging via Mastervolt Mass Combi Ultra 12/3000-150
- Solar charging 580w via 3x Victron mppt smart controllers with Victron SmartSense battery monitoring
- Alternator charging via starter battery and Victron Orion 30 amp dc to dc charger, suitably fused
- Output to 3000w Mass Combi inverter and house loads protected by a t-class fuse
- All charge and discharge settings to meet system component requirements or more conservatively to maximise battery lifespan
I have consulted my electrician in designing this system but as it is straightforward propose to do the work myself and have him check it over when I have done.
Can you confirm whether this setup appears acceptable for insurance purposes and if not advise me what more I need to do.”
Insurer:
“We confirm receipt of your email of 04.01.2024, the details of which have been noted.
We advise that the details you have described are acceptable provided the installation is signed off by a qualified marine electrician.
We take this opportunity to wish you a Happy New Year and all the best for 2024.”
Having done the install myself with the invaluable advice on here, and having had the installation checked and OKed by two marine electricians, I am confident that with the install and the inherent safety of LifePo it is low down on the list of things I need to worry about.
Me:
“Thank you. This is probably a good time to notify you that I am proposing to change the service battery bank to LifePo4 this winter. The system I am planning will comprise:
- Fogstar Drift 460AH LifePo4 battery with internal Bluetooth BMS
- Shorepower charging via Mastervolt Mass Combi Ultra 12/3000-150
- Solar charging 580w via 3x Victron mppt smart controllers with Victron SmartSense battery monitoring
- Alternator charging via starter battery and Victron Orion 30 amp dc to dc charger, suitably fused
- Output to 3000w Mass Combi inverter and house loads protected by a t-class fuse
- All charge and discharge settings to meet system component requirements or more conservatively to maximise battery lifespan
I have consulted my electrician in designing this system but as it is straightforward propose to do the work myself and have him check it over when I have done.
Can you confirm whether this setup appears acceptable for insurance purposes and if not advise me what more I need to do.”
Insurer:
“We confirm receipt of your email of 04.01.2024, the details of which have been noted.
We advise that the details you have described are acceptable provided the installation is signed off by a qualified marine electrician.
We take this opportunity to wish you a Happy New Year and all the best for 2024.”
Marsali_1
Well-Known Member
I have no connection to this guy Clark's Adventure and cannot vouch for him in any way but his videos vis a vis LiFePO4 batteries make sense to me without appearing to be snake oil sales. If you look through his Youtube "catalogue" you will find reviews of pre-built battery packs but there is no reason why any reasonably handy person couldn't build his/her own battery from individual prismatic cells and an appropriate BMS (Battery Management System) board. Clark has developed a monitoring device he calls the Bank Manager which switches off/on battery bank charging when it detects the point of full charge or a drop in charge below a set threshold and he promotes the thing in his videos but he does explain, in layman's terms, why he developed it. He responds to email enquiries via his website but probably won't offer more than general advice to someone who is not a customer. I would have no problem doing a LiFePO4 switch on our boat based on the information I've gleaned from his videos coupled with my research of other sources.
The insurance cover issue is not a problem in my case because I haven't found a company that is prepared to insure our 61 year old girl. I can only imagine that as underwriters better comprehend the differences in lithium battery chemistry they will cast a more favourable eye on LiFePO4.
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dunedin
Well-Known Member
From many perspectives makes sense. But let’s hope they informed their insurers and they are happy to continue cover.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Did tou manage to get either or both of the marine electricians to formally issue a certificate / letter “signing off” your installation?
That seems to be the tricky bit (unless can use personal contacts to enable).
stranded
Well-Known Member
There is no certificate. There is nothing to certificate because there is no standard.
Both have stated in email they have checked the installation and stated I have used the appropriate kit, well installed and well protected. I had to explain some bits like the class t fuses etc to them because they didn’t know, which in my experience is pretty normal, at least down here, because they do not keep abreast of changing technologies.
That is the best that can be done - to certificate you need to have a standard.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Just like there is no certificate for a lead acid intallation. But lead acid doesn’t catch fire, does it. Ask a submariner.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
This also came up in a thread late last month.
I also spotted the insurance change. I don't think anyone mentioned another restriction. Batteries were only to be charged during daylight hours. That meant you could arrive at a marina in the evening with flat batteries and not allowed to charge until morning. Useless if catching an early tide. Batteries can only be charged during daylight when someone is onboard.
Pretty silly as it's OK to snooze during the day when charging but doesn't help to be awake overnight because charging isn't allowed.
I also spotted the insurance change. I don't think anyone mentioned another restriction. Batteries were only to be charged during daylight hours. That meant you could arrive at a marina in the evening with flat batteries and not allowed to charge until morning. Useless if catching an early tide. Batteries can only be charged during daylight when someone is onboard.
Pretty silly as it's OK to snooze during the day when charging but doesn't help to be awake overnight because charging isn't allowed.
zoidberg
Well-Known Member
Y'see?
Squeeze a little and lots more useful information comes out - like toothpaste!
Squeeze a little and lots more useful information comes out - like toothpaste!
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
I think it's a work in progress by some marine insurance. A lot doesn't make sense and wording is not precise.Y'see?
Squeeze a little and lots more useful information comes out - like toothpaste!
My policy says "batteries must be charged during daylight hours". Does that mean fully charged and I can't discharge in daylight?
It doesn't say "must only be charged during daylight hours".
Lots of other bits with logical holes.
My home policy doesn't seem to have anything about this issue. Just as well because I have a house battery and EV in the integral garage. Both LiFePO4.
Lots of other stuff dotted around that's controllable from anywhere. Most are hibernating, have enough charge for 6-7 months use or are installed outside (e.g. mower). Could be a nightmare if house insurance goes down the same route. Doubt it would be as Draconian.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Insurers are conservative folk. They like what they know and can statistically measure. Lithium is already an irrevocable part of everyone’s life. How many of us have been a victim of a lithium battery fire? In your home, boat, car, pocket? Or your briefcase. Sony hit the headlines about 15 years ago with laptop batteries. I can vouch for their laptops running hot, the solder ran out of the joints in mine
No fire though. It went out with a whimper, not a blaze of glory. Working in the tech industry has given me a lot of lithium battery exposure, mostly of the more flammable types too. I have personally never seen one on fire, or heard of it apart from via the news. Is it a media scare, or is it as widespread as some like to think. Though I daresay even the tin hat brigade put their phone in their trouser pocket, and charge their phone beside their bed at night. Far far more dangerous than LiPO4
No fire though. It went out with a whimper, not a blaze of glory. Working in the tech industry has given me a lot of lithium battery exposure, mostly of the more flammable types too. I have personally never seen one on fire, or heard of it apart from via the news. Is it a media scare, or is it as widespread as some like to think. Though I daresay even the tin hat brigade put their phone in their trouser pocket, and charge their phone beside their bed at night. Far far more dangerous than LiPO4Marsali_1
Well-Known Member
Apropos to the discussion as a whole, from what I can determine there are a number of BMS manufacturers in China but not all BMS boards are created equal. The better ones have a large list of battery cell level parameters which they continuously monitor and will issue an alarm and take action in response to user set deviation thresholds. That includes monitoring the internal temperature of the battery pack and turning off charging and/or discharging if the temperature parameters are exceeded. Likewise, if the ambient temperature of the battery environment goes beyond parameters, the BMS can switch on external heating or cooling as required. All in all, a good quality BMS with good quality LiFePO4 cells can give dependable and worry free service. In my non-professional opinion there is a far greater risk of a boat fire from an improperly fused, overloaded and overheated circuit than from a correctly installed and protected LiFePO4 battery somehow overheating.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Insurers have years of experience of hundreds of thousands of LA installations on boat - which don't catch fir. Fire is extremely rare on boats and is almost always either gas related or on petrol fuelled boats during refuelling. There are virtually no reliable statistics in the UK on the subject other than RNLI/Coastguard and occasionally reports from insurers of main source of claims. Fire does not appear in either of them as significant. Much better statistics in the us where reporting such incidents is compulsory, but obvious that the main issue is with petrol powered speedboats of which there are rather a lot mostly used by dickheads.
ducked
Well-Known Member
He claims (as of 28/09/2024, so fairly recently) that other available big name charge contollers (Victron is mentioned) arent correctly optimised for charging Lithium (specifically they charge to a reference voltage) and their use will reduce battery lifespan.
I'm not sufficiently informed to evaluate that claim, and dont expect to be in the near future, but it doesn't sound good.
ducked
Well-Known Member
Not much chance of restricting dickhead insurance. Too important a market demographic.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Well exactly. Once a significant number of us have installed lithium batteries, insurers will have the numbers, and all will be fine. We destroyed a lead acid battery on Wednesday. No fire, but it puffed up, and broke it’s casing. A 12ah one for a bilge pump on a dayboat. Took it home and charged it overnight, the charger was set on high and I didn’t notice, being knackered. You can destroy anything with only a little stupidity.
geem
Well-Known Member
Funny you should mention those two companies. The surveyor I used recently suggested I stay well clear of those two companies. He was less than impressed with dealing with both of them.
One thing I have learnt in the last 2 years of working on a commercial lithium battery project is how uneducated most surveyors and insurers are. The insurance and marine surveying industry has seen 90 major fires associated with lithium in a 12 month period. None of these fires have been attributed to lifepo4 chemistry, (as fitted to yachts as domestic battery banks.) the problem is that the average surveyor and insurance underwriter don't know the difference.
The 90 fires worldwide, have been caused by lithium powered toys being charged on super yachts. When the insurance and surveying world finally get their act together, I am sure lifepo4 battery installations will be the norm and fully accepted. Until then, there are insurers to stay clear of. If all boaters voted with their feet and explained why they were moving insurer, they may have a change of view
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Indeed. Fortunately not such a big problem in the UK and there are relatively few petrol speedboats and most seem to be used sensibly.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Agree broadly with your sentiments about surveyors and insurers (although have had excellent service from both the insurers cited). Surveyors get into arguments with insurers and often lose and maybe that colours their vision as the vast majority of claims are met without ever involving an independent surveyor. Positions based on ignorance are very difficult to shift.
Sandydog2
Well-Known Member
There are tens of thousands of batteries installed in UK houses now for solar systems. There is no additional premium for insurance and they can’t be restricting charging to when people are home.
