Lithium. Really?

[geem]

There are tens of thousands of batteries installed in UK houses now for solar systems. There is no additional premium for insurance and they can’t be restricting charging to when people are home.

Lots of them are installed in steel boxes that reduce the risk of fire spread as long as they are not mounted on combustible surfaces. Some of the battery chemistry used in domestic battery banks are the more volatile chemistries but most now have adopted lifepo4 chemistry for its vastly reduced risk of fire.
There is still a blanket recommendation to install them outside if possible. You are correct though that you don't hear of many fires associated with domestic batteries.
As far as I know, there isn't a single incident of fire on a boat caused directly by a lifepo4 battery malfunction. Bad wiring causing shorts next to combustible from either lifepo4 or lead batteries is a far more likely cause of fire. Bottle gas is probably top of the list for boat fires in leisure craft.
I know of two boats from first hand experience that have burnt to the point of full destruction. One friend had extensive burns and was airlifted to hospital, but thankfully, he made a full recovery. The other guy was a French single handed sailor in the Azores who had a gas leak whilst smoking. He didn't make it.

 

[Sea Change]

Positions based on ignorance are very difficult to shift.

Or as Johnathon Swift put it: "you cannot reason a person out of a position that they did not reason themselves in to".

This applies to many things in life... not just a fear of lithium batteries.

 

[doug748]

Or as the great Professor Toecap said:


My view is Reasonabe

Your view is Unreasonable

His view is Stupid.

.

 

[Marsali_1]

He claims (as of 28/09/2024, so fairly recently) that other available big name charge contollers (Victron is mentioned) arent correctly optimised for charging Lithium (specifically they charge to a reference voltage) and their use will reduce battery lifespan.

I'm not sufficiently informed to evaluate that claim, and dont expect to be in the near future, but it doesn't sound good.

I think what has happened is that he embraced LiFePO4 early when the BMS boards were quite primative and that led him to develop his "Bank Manager". There is no question that improper cycling of a LiFePO4 battery can lead to its early demise (over charging and over discharging being the two biggest problems). Victron certainly are a large presence in the market but I don't think that any of their products are designed to control charge and discharge at the battery cell level. I think they are intended to control the "big picture" while the BMS (one per battery) controls the individual cells. From what I can determine, the better quality BMS boards have now eveolved to interact better with systems like Victron's so it is a case of the "small picture" telling the "big picture" its needs. In some ways I think these changes may have made his product redundant. Regardless, his videos and those from Off-Grid Garage are, in my opinion, quite useful for learning about the technology.

 

[geem]

I think what has happened is that he embraced LiFePO4 early when the BMS boards were quite primative and that led him to develop his "Bank Manager". There is no question that improper cycling of a LiFePO4 battery can lead to its early demise (over charging and over discharging being the two biggest problems). Victron certainly are a large presence in the market but I don't think that any of their products are designed to control charge and discharge at the battery cell level. I think they are intended to control the "big picture" while the BMS (one per battery) controls the individual cells. From what I can determine, the better quality BMS boards have now eveolved to interact better with systems like Victron's so it is a case of the "small picture" telling the "big picture" its needs. In some ways I think these changes may have made his product redundant. Regardless, his videos and those from Off-Grid Garage are, in my opinion, quite useful for learning about the technology.

The BMS doesn't no control. It only does protection of the cells. The main function is to disable the battery (bank of cells) for such events as low cell voltage, high cell voltage, over temperature protection, it is not a charge controller. It can't moderate charging from any source. The only devices that can do that are products from the likes of Victron and others that charge via solar, DC/DC chargers, mains chargers. These devices can be set to stop charging at predetermined voltages. Early BMS had passive balancers to attempt to keep cells at the same voltage. More modern bms have active balancer built in to their boards. These can balance at 10 times the rate of a passive balancer. This is a useful addition to the BMS but it isn't controlling charge. It is simply sending current from the highest cell to the lowest cell to keep the pack balanced

 

[Sea Change]

There's a danger when talking about LiFePO4 that your information is still based on assumptions that were correct ten years ago- principally, that the cells are very expensive.
Early projects were all about protecting your expensive investment, which led to very cautious decisions. Keeping the lights on when the system shut down was a major concern.
Nowadays, a LFP battery doesn't need to cost any more than a decent AGM per useful Ah. That changes a few things.
When I built a system using a simple MOSFET BMS with all the loads running through it, I know I was taking the simple and cheap option. All the guys who knew what they were doing were using very clever indirect systems with relays. There was lots of talk about bistable vs normally off.
Everybody was fitting heating pads too.
And settings were very cautious, as it was seen as better to lose power suddenly than to risk losing a few cycles of battery life.

Times have changed. Everybody uses a straightforward MOSFET BMS. Few people worry about heating pads unless they live in a canal boat in the north of England.
Not many people are even building their own batteries any more- a change that will probably be accelerated by the insurance situation. That's a shame because the components inside most DIY batteries are just as good as the best 'drop in' batteries, and much better than the cheap ones.

 

[Marsali_1]

The BMS doesn't no control. It only does protection of the cells. The main function is to disable the battery (bank of cells) for such events as low cell voltage, high cell voltage, over temperature protection, it is not a charge controller. It can't moderate charging from any source. The only devices that can do that are products from the likes of Victron and others that charge via solar, DC/DC chargers, mains chargers. These devices can be set to stop charging at predetermined voltages. Early BMS had passive balancers to attempt to keep cells at the same voltage. More modern bms have active balancer built in to their boards. These can balance at 10 times the rate of a passive balancer. This is a useful addition to the BMS but it isn't controlling charge. It is simply sending current from the highest cell to the lowest cell to keep the pack balanced

In some ways it is a semantic discussion over the use of word "control". You are right that the BMS does not control in one sense of the word but it does suggest, in an overall way, what the critter does. It is quite difficult to present complex points in a way that doesn't involve large paragraphs of text. What I was meaning with my use of "control" was that the BMS, as you state, monitors the state of the individual cells and tells the attached load or charge devices when it needs to stop what is happening.

 

[geem]

In some ways it is a semantic discussion over the use of word "control". You are right that the BMS does not control in one sense of the word but it does suggest, in an overall way, what the critter does. It is quite difficult to present complex points in a way that doesn't involve large paragraphs of text. What I was meaning with my use of "control" was that the BMS, as you state, monitors the state of the individual cells and tells the attached load or charge devices when it needs to stop what is happening.

It doesn't. There is no intelligent link between bms and charging devices. The devices control from a preset voltage only. Nothing to do with the bms

 

[kwb78]

It doesn't. There is no intelligent link between bms and charging devices. The devices control from a preset voltage only. Nothing to do with the bms

There can be however - many BMS can output data on RS485 or CANbus connections, and there are battery chargers (and inverters) which will use that information for limiting charge/discharge current.

 

[geem]

There can be however - many BMS can output data on RS485 or CANbus connections, and there are battery chargers (and inverters) which will use that information for limiting charge/discharge current.

There are some, but they are in a minority. The jk Inverter bms will do this. It's a DIY battery bms. I am not aware of any drop in batteries that it is routinely fitted to. Victron do batteries that are inherently part of a CANbus system but they are super expensive. I know cruisers in the US that have spent $15,000US on the full Victron system architecture. Most UK cruisers don't choose this route. The self contained battery with bms has more than 90% of the market

 

[Chiara’s slave]

There are some, but they are in a minority. The jk Inverter bms will do this. It's a DIY battery bms. I am not aware of any drop in batteries that it is routinely fitted to. Victron do batteries that are inherently part of a CANbus system but they are super expensive. I know cruisers in the US that have spent $15,000US on the full Victron system architecture. Most UK cruisers don't choose this route. The self contained battery with bms has more than 90% of the market

My home battery and inverter talk to each other with RS485. I can’t see anyone installing it on a boat any time soon though. Perhaps Fogstar will do a marine version in the future.

 

[zoidberg]

There was a time in my life when I flew about with my butt strapped to a lot of stuff a darn sight more dangerous and explosive than lithium metal.
But I didn't get it wet....

wary

 

[geem]

My home battery and inverter talk to each other with RS485. I can’t see anyone installing it on a boat any time soon though. Perhaps Fogstar will do a marine version in the future.

I don't see a huge need for full inverter/battery integration on a boat. It has it's benefits where you are running large inverters such as in house where you may need to switch from using the stored energy in a home battery system to running from the grid. I think the lack of full integration on a boat provided more resilience. You can have a number of charging sources. Multiple MPPTs, diesel generator running shope power chargers, DC/DC chargers, wind power. All of these can be independently connected to your busbars. Failure of one doesn't stop the boat. Twin lithium batteries likewise have built in redundancy ensures a failed battery can be isolated and you carry on. Sometimes simple is best

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I don't see a huge need for full inverter/battery integration on a boat. It has it's benefits where you are running large inverters such as in house where you may need to switch from using the stored energy in a home battery system to running from the grid. I think the lack of full integration on a boat provided more resilience. You can have a number of charging sources. Multiple MPPTs, diesel generator running shope power chargers, DC/DC chargers, wind power. All of these can be independently connected to your busbars. Failure of one doesn't stop the boat. Twin lithium batteries likewise have built in redundancy ensures a failed battery can be isolated and you carry on. Sometimes simple is best

Even I run multiple MPPTs. The whole thing would descend into the stuff of nightmares for many people.

 

[zoidberg]

'Every day a schoolday...'

A new study in Nature suggests that a simple, low-cost lithium supplement could reverse Alzheimer’s-related brain damage and restore memory at least in mice. Researchers found that low brain lithium levels were consistently associated with hallmark Alzheimer’s changes, including amyloid plaques, tau tangles, and cognitive decline. When mice were deficient in lithium, these damaging changes worsened, setting off a cycle that further depleted lithium in the brain.

The team discovered that treating lithium-deficient mice with low doses of lithium orotate .... reversed brain damage and restored memory performance. Unlike the commonly prescribed lithium carbonate, lithium orotate improved multiple disease pathways at once and showed no signs of toxicity, even with long-term use. These results could help explain why earlier human trials with other lithium forms yielded mixed outcomes.

If confirmed in people, this approach could be a game-changer for the more than 55 million people worldwide living with dementia.

For the avoidance of doubt and contumely, I'm not suggesting one sucks on the terminals....

 

[newtothis]

'Every day a schoolday...'



View attachment 197533

For the avoidance of doubt and contumely, I'm not suggesting one sucks on the terminals....

I ain't basing my future mental health on a recipe for roast cauliflower.

 

[ylop]

That's a difficult one to get around as virtually every item that has a lithium battery states in the instructions "never leave charging unattended" .

Very common advice - which I’m not sure is actually logical from a safety perspective! If a Li battery decides to burst into flames, the last place you want to be is right next to it / trapped on board with it. You boat is likely to be destroyed either way.

 

[Rappey]

If a Li battery decides to burst into flames, the last place you want to be is right next to it

Nearly been there ! Was using a powerfull cordless drill boring numerous holes in a pontoon chassis. A cheap knock off Chinese battery was powering my drill. As i was drilling the battery was in contact with my forearm. I suddenly felt it hot, looked down at it and it was starting to smoke and the casing was bubbling.
Quick as a flash i pressed to release button as i didnt wasn't my drill also going up in flames and dropped the battery kicking it away from my tools.
I then thought "oh cr p" its now on a wooden decked pontoon surrounded by flammable expensive boats.
Only option was to kick it over the side while the images of how a lithium battery can turn into a mini inferno filled my mind.
I will only ever buy genuine now, lesson learnt.

 

[Sea Change]

Nearly been there ! Was using a powerfull cordless drill boring numerous holes in a pontoon chassis. A cheap knock off Chinese battery was powering my drill. As i was drilling the battery was in contact with my forearm. I suddenly felt it hot, looked down at it and it was starting to smoke and the casing was bubbling.
Quick as a flash i pressed to release button as i didnt wasn't my drill also going up in flames and dropped the battery kicking it away from my tools.
I then thought "oh cr p" its now on a wooden decked pontoon surrounded by flammable expensive boats.
Only option was to kick it over the side while the images of how a lithium battery can turn into a mini inferno filled my mind.
I will only ever buy genuine now, lesson learnt.

I had a scare with a knock-off battery as well. It came with a Ryobi tool that I bought secondhand.
It was always very hard to press the release clips on the sides, and one day as I was putting it in the charger, I pressed a bit harder than usual and felt something go 'click'.
Next thing, smoke starts pouring out.
I immediately pulled out back out of the charger, and a piece of metal fell out of the casing. Smoking stopped.

Once it had cooled down enough, I took a look and it was invite what had happened. The release clips are backed by stainless steel springs. The only thing isolating these from the cells is a thin layer of foam rubber. My extra hard push had been enough for the spring to pierce the foam and create a dead short across the cells.

Terrible, terrible design.

 

[dgadee]

Insurers have years of experience of hundreds of thousands of LA installations on boat - which don't catch fir. Fire is extremely rare on boats and is almost always either gas related or on petrol fuelled boats during refuelling. There are virtually no reliable statistics in the UK on the subject other than RNLI/Coastguard and occasionally reports from insurers of main source of claims. Fire does not appear in either of them as significant. Much better statistics in the us where reporting such incidents is compulsory, but obvious that the main issue is with petrol powered speedboats of which there are rather a lot mostly used by dickheads.

My friend's boat was pottering down the NI coast not so long ago when it went on fire. Not petrol. No gas being used at the time. He is not sure what the cause was but wonders about an overheating gearbox. The insurance company paid out in full. The image is a screengrab from a video taken by the RNLI after they had taken him and his crew off - one of the lifeboat crew went onboard and opened up the engine compartment and the fire took off.