zoidberg
Well-Known Member
And you intend a DIY 'drop in' installation...?
Yeah. Right.
Last edited:
Lithium. Really?
- Thread starter zoidberg
- Start date
And you intend a DIY 'drop in' installation...?
Yeah. Right.
KevinV
Well-Known Member
Totally different chemistry, as you well know.
The photo, and headline are at least accurate:
Matson Suspends Shipping EVs Citing Hazards of Lithium-ion Batteries
https://www.cnn.com/2025/06/24/us/morning-midas-ship-sinks-northern-pacific
"...after crew members abandoned ship when they couldn’t extinguish an onboard fire that left the carrier dead in the water"
"Among the cars were about 70 fully electric and about 680 hybrid vehicles. A large plume of smoke was initially seen at the ship’s stern coming from the deck loaded with electric vehicles, the Coast Guard and Zodiac Maritime said at the time."
Neither statement says the fire started on the car deck - the fact that the vessel was immobilised might just as easily suggest an engine room fire. I have no flesh in the game, but car carrier fires aren't a new thing since EV's came along, so concentrating on the presence of EV's smacks to me of having an agenda. Admittedly EV fires are proving harder to put out - a thing I don't really understand on vessels with huge engines and an unlimited supply of water - I guess insurance is cheaper than the counter measures.
In any case, a US carrier refusing to carry them will just encourage the chinese to build more car carriers, handing another industry to them on a plate
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
Nobody is forcing you to fit lithium batteries.
I've looked in to this extensively. I understand the different chemistries and the risks, and how to safely install and operate a lithium bank in a boat.
My family have been living full time on a boat with a lithium bank for the past four years. I sleep easily at night.
I'm not going to try to change your mind because frankly you are just trolling. So you can continue wasting your money on yesterday's technology, and I shall continue to enjoy the many benefits of a lithium system. A system that is so good that it cost less to install than lead acid, runs entirely from solar (I never use shore power or engine charging, and I sold my generator), and cooks my dinner every night.
Last edited:
fredrussell
Well-Known Member
This ^^^
ducked
Well-Known Member
"an unlimited supply of water " has been known to make ships fall over and/or sink,Neither statement says the fire started on the car deck - the fact that the vessel was immobilised might just as easily suggest an engine room fire. I have no flesh in the game, but car carrier fires aren't a new thing since EV's came along, so concentrating on the presence of EV's smacks to me of having an agenda. Admittedly EV fires are proving harder to put out - a thing I don't really understand on vessels with huge engines and an unlimited supply of water
te
Of course thats not really an EV associated novelty either
Stemar
Well-Known Member
Knowing that cars catch fire, irrespective of their motive power, if I were specifying a car carrier, I'd want a substantial fire suppression system built into the car deck and drains to match. Water may not put out a lithium battery fire, but enough will keep things cool and reduce the likelihood of a fire spreading.
ducked
Well-Known Member
Category: Free Sample Online Book Chapters
Lithium or Lead-Acid Batteries for a Cruising Boat – Seems (to me) to be a fairly balanced basic discussion. Suggests that, at time of writing, (January 10, 2023 )Lithium cost about 4 times as much for equiv capacity but lasted about twice as long, so overall was effectively about twice the price.
May have got cheaper now, dunno. 2.5 years is quite a long time for this sort of thing.
Also suggest its more complex, and thus technically more demanding and inherently less reliable.
Lithium or Lead-Acid Batteries for a Cruising Boat – Seems (to me) to be a fairly balanced basic discussion. Suggests that, at time of writing, (January 10, 2023 )Lithium cost about 4 times as much for equiv capacity but lasted about twice as long, so overall was effectively about twice the price.
May have got cheaper now, dunno. 2.5 years is quite a long time for this sort of thing.
Also suggest its more complex, and thus technically more demanding and inherently less reliable.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
The price has come down dramatically, Lithium is now cheaper than LA. Lasting twice as long is nonsense, it's much more than that.
Less reliable is also nonsense. A properly installed Lithium system is more reliable and better managed than just fitting a LA battery and hooking it up to a charger/s, which is how most LA systems are fitted.
zoidberg
Well-Known Member
Now lookee here, you lot!
It's difficult enough trying to becontentious provocative argumentative thought-provoking in here - we've done 'anchors' to death and there's no fun left in 'catamarans vs AWBs' these days. 
There's no need to treat the gentle tongue-in-cheek posting as an Article Of Faith or a mortal slight to one's ancestors. It sometimes seems as though all the Sense Of Humour Failures in the Western World have collected together here under the YBW umbrella.
Just wait until I start bangin' on about ropey old gas supplies and 'floating bombs' again....
It's difficult enough trying to be
There's no need to treat the gentle tongue-in-cheek posting as an Article Of Faith or a mortal slight to one's ancestors. It sometimes seems as though all the Sense Of Humour Failures in the Western World have collected together here under the YBW umbrella.
Just wait until I start bangin' on about ropey old gas supplies and 'floating bombs' again....
ducked
Well-Known Member
I was forgetting the car decks are above the WL, which I suppose would help a lot, as long as the drains dont get blocked with debris.
OTOH the open decks make then very vulnerable to "free surface", and they have fallen over due to poorly secured bow doors scooping up seas.
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
I built my first lithium battery in early 2021.
Four cells plus BMS, total cost £407, including delivery etc. Useable capacity of 270Ah.
For comparison, I had originally intended to buy four Trojan T105 lead acid batteries. This would have given me a useable capacity of 225Ah and would have cost £690 inc delivery.
So four years ago you could already build a lithium bank for a lower initial outlay than lead acid.
I've had some extra costs but not as many as you would think. I use a more expensive type of fuse. I was building a new system from scratch so all the components were lithium compatible anyway. Probably the main place where people spend a chunk of money is in alternator protection, where you might install a £150 DC-DC charger. I sailed south instead, and run entirely off solar.
No reliability issues, and once installed the system is basically idiot proof. The BMS sits between all loads and the battery cells and will stop reverse polarity, short circuits, over charging, over discharging, basically all the things that can hurt your battery.
I don't miss the bad old days of lead acid... worrying over low voltages... turning off the fridge at night... the heater throwing a fault code due to low voltage... hours of engine charging...
In life cycle costs, lithium is streets ahead. It's supposed to be good for at least 2000 cycles, maybe much more. Nobody really knows how long LiFePO4 batteries will last. Rod Collins has 13yrs of fairly heavy use on his bank and is showing essentially zero loss of capacity. EVs are likewise proving to have very long battery lives (with the exception of the early Nissan Leaf which had poor thermal management, and isn't LFP anyway).
In four years of full time liveaboard cruising, I've put about 200 cycles on my first battery (I added a second one a couple of years ago to increase capacity). My system gets used heavily. Every meal is cooked using it and we run laptops, two fridges, all of our navigation gear including autopilot, in fact everything on the boat except engine start and windlass.
So I can expect another ~36yrs, minimum, from my first battery, by which point I'll be 80yrs old. If I have to fork out for a new battery at that point, I won't complain too much.
ducked
Well-Known Member
Sounds like I'm not going to live long enough to get the benefit.
I think/assume that the article I linked to was considering the total installation cost, including all the control hardware and DC-DC, but it doesn't go into detail, much of the site being subscriber-only, but mentions that lithium requires a backup (I'd guess LA based on the start battery but I cant access that bit) due to possible BMS load dumping behaviour, which can damage electronics and alternator.
Early days. I've only got a single (dead) start battery, so I suppose I'll try and get that basic system working first, add basic battery saving solar, and then likely try to get hand starting of the engine working before I think about a possible separate wee (lithium?) domestic bank
Last edited:
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
Why not?
I got the benefit on day one, because it was cheaper.
Then my neighbours got the benefit on day two, because I no longer had to run my engine or generator.
And I, and those around me, have been benefiting every day since.
If you motor everywhere, and use marinas every night with access to shore power, then you might as well stick with lead acid. But for pretty much everybody else, lithium is going to give you a much better experience and lower costs.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Im not sure I could accept the safety issues with LA. The gasses they produce, explosion risk. Seems like madness to me.
Content removed (and users).
Please keep it on topic (relative to your boat ownership, management, and use);
Please keep it on topic (relative to your boat ownership, management, and use);
Thank you for your cooperation.
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately a new issue is emerging that hampers lithium installs on boats - insurance. For example, my Bishop Skinner's policy has recently added a term that is so restrictive that it effectively precludes a useful lithium install, whether professionally done or not. Changing insurance company is not easy or cheap, so I have to live with their restrictions, which means LA batteries.
Last edited:
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
We’ll be going lithium on our next battery change, we can get the same amp hours out of a smaller, lighter battery, mostly due to deeper discharge without damage, and longer life. What’s not to like?
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
Possibly your insurance company's restrictive terms. Two of the big companies - GJW and Bishop Skinner - disallow charging when not on board which makes a lithium install less useful. I have no issue with lithium, but the proponents need to check their policy small print, because this restrictive stuff is creeping in unannounced and buried deep in reams of paperwork.
Last edited:
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
I’ve asked mine this specific question, and they shrugged their shoulders, basically. Said they’d be annoyed if they managed to prove faulty installation. Not Bishop Skinner.
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
So far. Wise to check again before you do the install if you are in a new insurance period, because these lithium restrictions are often new.
